Little Hearts, Big Changes: Helping Kids Navigate Divorce with Danielle Lindner

Season 11

May 13

Helping Kids Navigate Divorce with Parent Coach Danielle Lindner

Seth Nelson and Pete Wright welcome parent coach and early childhood education expert Danielle Lindner to discuss how children process divorce and what parents can do to help them stay resilient. Lindner, author of "The Parent's Pocket Guide to Surviving the Preschool Years" and several children's books, specializes in helping families raise emotionally healthy kids while maintaining their own wellbeing during major life transitions.

Seth and Pete explore key indicators that children might be struggling with divorce, often manifesting in behavior changes opposite to their typical personality. The discussion delves into positive parenting strategies during divorce—including the importance of consistency, emotional validation, and avoiding negative talk about the other parent. Lindner emphasizes the power of age-appropriate communication and explains how "scaffolding"—building supportive steps toward greater emotional agency—can help children develop resilience during challenging times.

Questions we answer in this episode:

How can you tell if your child is struggling with divorce beyond what they're telling you?
When should you consider bringing in professional help for your children?
How do you handle introducing new partners when kids express negative feelings?

Key Takeaways:

Maintain consistency and kindness across both households
Validate children's feelings without overloading them with information
Consider early intervention with counseling—it's better to start early than wait for problems

This episode provides practical, actionable advice for parents navigating divorce with young children. Whether you're just beginning the process or already co-parenting, Lindner's expertise offers valuable insights into supporting children's emotional health while maintaining positive family relationships during and after divorce.

Links & Notes

Find Danielle on her website, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
Check out Danielle’s books
Schedule a consult with Seth
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!

Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships from TruStory FM. Today, you all, your children are never going to be happier in a Toaster.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody, I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today we're talking about how to help your kids stay resilient, confident, and calm, even when everything around them feels like it's changing. Navigating a divorce is hard enough for adults, but it can feel downright overwhelming for young kids who don't have the tools to process it. Our guest today is Danielle Lindner, a parent coach and early childhood education expert who specializes in helping family raise resilient, emotionally healthy kids without losing themselves in the process. Danielle, welcome to The Toaster.
Danielle Lindner:
Thank you for having me. I've never been in a Toaster before.
Pete Wright:
You generally don't want to be there. I think you'll find after this session, you won't ever want to be in a toaster.
Seth Nelson:
Do we really want to raise resilient, emotionally healthy kids?
Pete Wright:
Well, look how you turned out.
Seth Nelson:
Shouldn't we start with that question? Let's not assume anything on this show, Pete.
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
No.
Pete Wright:
What is the power of having kids that are broken, just a little bit emotionally? Don't answer that, Danielle. That was not an invitation to explore further. Here's what I'd like to know. In your work with families, what are the first signs you notice when a young child is struggling with divorce? I get the feeling from those we've talked to in the past that sometimes when you're in your own divorce, you might miss some of the signals, even when the kids aren't saying it, maybe you can see it. What should we be looking for?
Danielle Lindner:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So you'll see usually just the opposite of their normal personality. So if they're introverted, they'll start being extroverted. If they're extroverted, they'll start being introverted. If they're a kid that used to love going to school, all of a sudden, they don't want to go to school. These are generalizations, they're things like that. All of a sudden they have to sleep in daddy's room or if they're already split, they have to sleep in mommy's room when they normally were just sleeping fine alone. Crying, getting really emotional, being overly emotional, getting in arguments at school, getting in fights with other kids at school, even if they're three or four, not listening, being-
Seth Nelson:
Age three or four, not fighting with three or four kids at once like, "Bring it on."
Danielle Lindner:
Right. Yes. Age three or four.
Seth Nelson:
We teach them to brawl. Yeah, that's okay.
Danielle Lindner:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
"My parents are going through divorce. This is going to be easy, I'll take you all on."
Danielle Lindner:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Could be a [inaudible 00:03:03], let's go.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah, so generally just those changes, those shifts. And you're like, "This isn't my kid." You'll be like, "Hmm, this is weird."
Pete Wright:
I think that's so interesting because my default assumption is the kid goes sullen, right? It's just dark. I don't know why, because maybe that was me. But the fact that you get an opposite signal, right, that they are the introvert, extrovert, I totally... I can see that. Seth, when your kiddo, when you divorced, did you see that with him? Because I imagine that would start his stand-up career.
Seth Nelson:
No, we didn't see, I think a ton of change. I think part of that, as you know, my former spouse and I get along really well. There was obviously change, but we spent a lot of time kind of having check-ins with him like, "Hey, everything okay? We can talk about it, we cannot, we can do whatever." A lot of time on, "Hey, something just really cool happened. Do you want to call Mom? So tell her what happened. Do you want to FaceTime?" So we did a lot of that. The one time, and we've talked about this, and Pete, I haven't thought about this in years, where it was really tough is we went over to a friend's house. There was his friend and their older sister and they were all playing. And we had gone over there more than once. He asked me in the car on the way home when he's strapped in his little car seat, "Why do the kids' names parents live in the same house?" Because the house he was growing up in, we didn't live in the same house.
And his older sister, her dad also lived elsewhere because my former spouse was married prior to me. So both kids in that house were going to a separate dad's house, right? Logistical nightmare. So that's just what he knew. And I said, "Well, because they're married and when you're married, you can live under the same roof." He goes, "Well, why aren't you and Mommy married?" I said, "Well, we decided it was better that we live under separate roofs." And this one huge crocodile tear came down.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you are broken.
Seth Nelson:
And it just crushed my heart.
Danielle Lindner:
Oh.
Seth Nelson:
And the only positive thing about it from a parental point of view is I was glad it happened in my car and not his mom's car because it would've crushed her even more than it crushed me. And he talked to her that night, put him to bed. I called her later and said, "I just want to let you know this happened. Here's what I told him, just so we're on the same page." But other than that, I'm sure Pete, if he was ever dumb enough to come on this show, maybe just to make fun of me, he would tell you I fucked up his life, but-
Pete Wright:
All right. So you're telling me I got a shot. I'm going to get it out there. This I think leads to the question about myths around kids and divorce, right? Because we've heard all sides on this show. We've heard kids can be very easily impacted by divorce and can be very troubled by the experience. And we've heard kids are super resilient. If you handle the divorce right, they'll handle the divorce right right along with you. Buried in that, are there myths that you find yourself having to debunk? What is the general trend of kids and divorce? Are they as resilient as we like to say they are? Or is that just what you say when you're in the middle of a divorce to make yourself feel better?
Danielle Lindner:
It's like the sandwich. The teacher always gives you the sandwich like, "Oh, they're so creative, but they're not listening in school, but we love them." It's trying to make you a little bit less horrible. But I think the truth is just like I say to parents who say, "Oh, I want to be a gentle parent." Or, "I want to be an authoritative parent." I'm like, "You can't pick one parent because every kid is different and every situation is different and you need to be a lot of different parents at the same time." And I see that too with kids of divorce. So you could have a perfectly amicable divorce and 20 years later, that kid's in massive therapy. And you could have a divorce where their parents are fighting like cats and dogs, and they're totally well-adjusted. It didn't affect them at all. So I think it's great... It's better to have an amicable divorce, I think you have a much better chance. And kids are resilient. Some kids are resilient, some kids aren't resilient. And I think it just really depends on the situation. You just don't know.
Seth Nelson:
Kind of really interesting when you're saying, "Look, everything seems fine."
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Kid's doing well, and then 20 years later they're like, "[inaudible 00:08:01]. Do I have that to look forward to? Am I looking forward to that conversation?"
Danielle Lindner:
Well, if they're probably... If they're fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, then they're probably not going to all of a sudden spaz out. There will be some clues about it, but it's more that if the parents have a great divorce, but they're not fine all along, even if the parents are doing everything right, and they're really amicable and everybody's kind of nice, but the kid's still struggling, it's kind of going to be something that you see all along, it's not going to be all of a sudden.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Seth Nelson:
A little bit relief there.
Pete Wright:
It's going to be all fine, fine, fine, fine, fine until you get the call that says, "This call is collect from Florida Prison. Say yes to accept the charges."
Danielle Lindner:
[inaudible 00:08:51] Prison. But then you also have those kids that are very introverted and that you do need to check in on them. If they do seem fine, fine, fine, you need to do the check-ins like you did. Do the check-ins and just make sure that they really are fine because a lot of kids are just not going to talk about it.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And I've found in my experiences when you're talking to kids that don't want to talk to you or about the topic that you want to talk to them about, just quick, "Hey, I know Mom and I aren't living in the same house anymore. How are you doing with that concept? And how's everything going? Just give me 1 to 10, 10 is amazing, no problem, one is, this is absolutely horrible." And then they give you, "Oh, it's a six." You're like, "All right. Anything we can do to improve it?" And it's just an open-ended question. And they might be like, "No." And you're like, "Yeah, I didn't think so because who cares about the extra four?" You make a joke. You got to know your kid, but, "Well, if there is, let me know, happy to work on it." And then you're done. And then you check in with the other parent and you say, "Look, today they were a six."
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right. For whatever freaking scale they call a six, it was a six.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. You don't need to turn to your kid and say, "Hey, I think you're probably emotionally struggling and you're probably really worried about the fact that Mom and Dad are never going to live together again and we're probably going to date new people." That's too much information. And I know parents who have done that and I'm like, "What are you doing?"
Pete Wright:
Well, at least you're not saying, "So you say you're a six. Is that your mother's fault?"
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Pete Wright:
That's going to be important. Well, and that leads us to positive parenting, right? What is positive parenting during a divorce? Is that just do what Seth does or is there actually some literature to go along with it?
Danielle Lindner:
Well, there may be literature to go along with it, but I'm just more about what makes sense logically. So positive parenting is not saying nasty things about the other person. You might really, really dislike your spouse and they might be horrible. I know plenty that are really legitimately horrible, but you can't say that to your kids. So you have to take a positive approach to it and just... It doesn't have to be all hearts and flowers. It can be like, "Look, we just don't get along, we don't see things the same way, but she loves you very much." Put it on how the mom or the dad cares about the child. Take it away from your feelings about the former spouse and just put it on, "Your mom loves you. I love you. We have differences of opinion and that's okay, and that's why we're not living together."
Seth Nelson:
Right. And I also find that a lot of the kids, they'll ask why, but really they're more concerned on, "How does it impact me?"
Danielle Lindner:
Right. "Am I going to get the iPad at both houses?"
Seth Nelson:
Right. Exactly.
Pete Wright:
I feel like all of this, it sounds so good, and yet the realities of divorce are maybe you're angry at the other parent, maybe you are feeling like it's impossible to communicate about the other parent to your kids without that look on your face, right? That one look on your face. How do you coach parents to find that consistency without beating themselves up when they fall apart, when they fall short of what we're asking them to do for their kids?
Danielle Lindner:
You know it's going to happen. We're human and things happen and you could get this phone call where you... Say, you were supposed to get the child support check and it's been four weeks now and you can't afford your next payment of soccer or whatever it is and you're just so frustrated and you lose it. I think it's really good to be honest with your kids and say, "Yeah, I lost my temper. I should not have done that, but people do that all the time and I'm going to reset and I'm going to apologize. And I'm going to try not to do that again. I might do it again, but I'm going to try not to." And I just think you have to just be honest with your kids that it might happen.
And also I think it's important to tell parents, if you are dealing with a spouse that's tough and not so nice, and they're saying negative things about you to your kids, which you know about, which you have to remember to play chess, not checkers. What I mean by that is if they're saying bad things about you and trying to get the kids to turn on you, they're playing checkers. This is right now. You need to play the long game because 18 years from now, they're going to remember which parent took the high road and that's the parent that they're going to feel safest with and the parent that they're going to want to spend most time with.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And ultimately, what I advise clients all the time is, well, they say, "Well, what do I say when my kid comes and kind of tells on their dad and says, "This is what he says about you."" You can say, "Look, everybody's entitled to their opinion and you get to make your own judgment on how I am towards you. That's what's important." And you give them all this power, right?
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And back to when you lose it sometimes and you're not perfect, I think the power of a parent telling a kid that they're sorry is amazing because the kid knows you're the authoritative figure in the room, you control everything, so to speak. So when you take the time and say, "I'm sorry." And you give them that kind of ownership and communications and letting them know that you're not perfect, I think that goes a long ways with kids when it's real and genuine and not just, "Oh, sorry." And you got to do it the right way. Not like how Pete gives me the non-apology apology. We're not looking for that.
Danielle Lindner:
Right. I do that.
Seth Nelson:
Right? We're looking for the real one?
Pete Wright:
Right. Nailed me. Just nailed me. No notes. When you're dealing with kids that are more impacted than others. So we're talking about now kids who are dealing with the anxiety and fear and uncertainty that come with watching their parents go through this process. How do you engage with kids to help them realize these feelings or feelings they might not be able to talk about? They might not have the vocabulary for it. How do you engage so that you can offer them tools?
Danielle Lindner:
If they're really young kids, which is really my wheelhouse, I usually tell the parents because they're the ones... I'm working with the parents, but they're working with their kids. I'll say, "Do a lot of role playing. Get some puppets, do a puppet show, have them act out what they're feeling." But don't make it them. Say, "Oh, Lisa and Mary, their parents moved out or whatever it is, and how do you think they're feeling?" And then let them kind of play act it through. And a lot of times you'll get a lot of good information from that that they won't necessarily say to you. And also if they're really little and they don't have a lot of language, you can just tell by how they're playing, how they're feeling. And then you can role play a more positive... You can say, "Well, let's try it like this." And role play a more positive scenario for them so that they see how it could go. So I try to do that a lot. I also say, "Get books. Read them books about divorce that are positive, that..." I wrote one.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
There you go. We're going to pitch that later, but the voice seems like a good time.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. And try and talk about the positive aspects of it. "Oh, you're probably going to get two iPads. You're going to have two cool rooms. You're going to have the ability..." For my niece and nephew, we made it all about, "Oh my gosh, you're moving in a new house. That means that Aunt Danielle gets to come and decorate it with unicorns." And we got everyone involved to make it special and fun for them and excited about whatever they could be excited about. And so even though they were dealing with the stress and things that at least there were other things that they thought were positive and cool. And we got them involved like, "Oh, you need to tell me how would you want your room to look?"
Seth Nelson:
That's what I was about to say next.
Danielle Lindner:
"What do you want it to be like?"
Seth Nelson:
Yes.
Danielle Lindner:
"How would you like it? It's a clean slate, you can make it anything you want. It doesn't have to be pink, it doesn't have to be blue."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Getting them involved in-
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah, it's helpful.
Seth Nelson:
It's all the ownership of it. It really makes a huge difference. And, "Hey, anything that you want to take to Dad's? Is there anything that you want to have at both houses? Right? So you can kind of make it similar and stuff." All that just goes a huge, huge ways. The other thing that kids can do, especially when they're young, is listen to a podcast called How to Split a Toaster, especially where we curse a lot.
Pete Wright:
Get them started earlier.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Get them started early.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
You want to prepare kids for their own divorce down the road.
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Because by then it's inevitable, you've already messed it up.
Danielle Lindner:
Or their second or third.
Seth Nelson:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
This is terrible, you guys, we're breaking podcasting today.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Exactly.
Pete Wright:
I've been reading about this concept of scaffolding, right? This idea of building small sort of supportive steps toward bigger agency for kids, especially younger kids. Talk to me about that. What does that mean?
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah, so we do that a lot in terms of building them up academically and just giving them small building blocks. So when they're two, you're going to just teach them about who they are, that they're actually a human being. It's strange, but until they're 18 months, they don't even know they're a human being. So then they start to realize they are, and you're doing gross motor stuff and fine motor. And then they get to the next class and you're going to maybe teach them what a letter is and what a sound is. And then the next class you're going to teach them about transitioning, which is a really important skill for divorce because you're going to be transitioning a lot from one house to another. Maybe you're building this amazing Lego project at Dad's and now, sorry, you have to leave it, we're going to Mom. So being able to transition and not have a meltdown is a really good executive functioning skill for kids.
And so we just kind of make it like building blocks. And it's very interesting because sometimes we'll have parents who, because of COVID, their kids were not in school until... And now they're four and they want them in school, and we say they really can't just be popped into a [inaudible 00:19:56] class because they haven't even gotten the building blocks that they really need to function well as a four-year-old. Sometimes it's really hard for parents to hear, but I say it's just like building a building. And if your foundation is crumbling, it's not worth it
Pete Wright:
or never was built.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Or never was built.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, and that gets to, we're not just talking about preparing young kids for a divorce, we're talking about preparing kids to be emotionally resilient in times of crisis, struggle. And to do so, to figure out how to do so when your executive functioning set of tools has not been fully developed yet, right? Seems very, very challenging.
Danielle Lindner:
It's interesting because most of the kids that struggle with executive functioning, I'm working with their parents who are struggling with their own executive functioning. And so-
Pete Wright:
I was just going to say my executive functioning checks in and out from time to time.
Danielle Lindner:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
I'm not sure I'm the best role model.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. And I fall into that too sometimes. But you learn strategies and you get a toolbox. And then, so my strategy, for example, is I have a lot of things during the day. So I use my phone and I set a timer on my phone for alarms to go off probably 10 a day, or I might miss a podcast or I might miss a client call because you just get distracted by life. I had to do something the other day and right in the middle of it, I had five minutes to get on a call. My daughter calls from college that her two front teeth, she just fell and lost her three front teeth. So things happen.
Seth Nelson:
I don't know why you didn't send your kid to college with bubble wrap, but that shit's on you.
Danielle Lindner:
Yep. I was like, "What?"
Seth Nelson:
Wow.
Danielle Lindner:
I'm like, "All right. Well, my alarm just went off, so I will be right back with you. Be back in a minute."
Pete Wright:
Oh yeah, go ahead.
Seth Nelson:
So there's enough stress in the world without busting out your front teeth.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
So what are you talking about, Seth?
Seth Nelson:
Protecting your kids and young minds from overwhelming stress, which is obviously the legal conflict. Just don't do it. Judges hate it, it's bad for your kids, it's bad for your case. There's absolutely nothing good about it. Do not make your kids your friends, they're your kids. Go talk to other friends or counselors. But you also talk about managing children's exposure to the news, social media, external stressors during divorce. How do you keep them away from that? They're all walking around with porn in their pocket. They are
Pete Wright:
Generalizing appropriately. That's true.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's all porn.
Seth Nelson:
Right. But they just get on their social media and there's just stuff everywhere, right? Falsehoods, not trues, whatever. And then if they see it and they stay on it a little bit, now it's in their algorithm, right? And it keeps coming back. So can you help us kind of shape that conversation a little bit?
Danielle Lindner:
No.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. All right. Well, that's a good show we had here, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely saw that coming. Protecting young minds, I don't want any part of it.
Danielle Lindner:
It's really hard. Aside from taking their phones away, which we know we're not going to do if they're 10 or older or even eight or older these days, they're going to get exposed to it. So I think the best thing we can do as parents is do a lot of check-ins. Try and keep doing those nightly dinners if you can. Even if it's just pizza at a counter and say, "So what'd you see today? What'd you learn today? Did you hear anything interesting?" Just try and check in with them as much as you can. And when you know that something huge has happened like, for example, the plane crash I think was at in Reagan National Airport, it was everywhere. And then we had so many kids freaked out to fly because they're playing in their toy box and they're hearing about this plane crash and all these horrible things. And so I say, turn off the TV, bring your child over and first say to them, "Oh, did you hear anything on the TV?" Because maybe they didn't, and if they didn't, just leave it.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Right, don't mention it.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. But if they did, say, "Well, what did you hear? And how do you feel about it?" Don't put the thoughts in their head because maybe it's not as bad as you think. And then just address what they're saying to you. And then start peeling it apart and talking about, "Well, there were helpers and now they know what was wrong so they can fix it. Next time you go, you'll be fine and you're safe with me, I'm keeping you safe." Whether that's true or not, depending what airline you're flying, I don't know.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Danielle Lindner:
But that's what we'd say.
Pete Wright:
Well, I think in the context of divorce, yeah right, we have that temptation to explain too much to the kids-
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
... who maybe are beyond it. But because we want them to feel somehow included, we're a transparent family unit. And so I think finding the line and riding that line between helping them understand the reality of any given situation and accidentally sort of unintentionally burdening them is really hard.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Really hard. Especially, when you're emotionally compromised.
Danielle Lindner:
Oh, it's really... And I'm so bad at that because I'm always saying to my kids-
Seth Nelson:
When something bad happens, you tell them to sit down and watch the TV.
Danielle Lindner:
No, no, I'm always saying, "Be careful when you ski because if you're brave... don't be brave because brave people die." I'm always like, "This could happen."
Seth Nelson:
This is why you wrote the book like professors and teachers, those who can't do, teach. I got it.
Danielle Lindner:
This could happen. This could happen. I did not do that when they were little kids, but now that they're both somewhat adults-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Right. At least they think they are.
Danielle Lindner:
And their brains were fully formed, I guess mostly, or some days questionable, I now warn them about things.
Pete Wright:
I can't wait to read your follow-up book, Mr. Hopsey Wisely Refuses To To The Black Diamond Slope.
Danielle Lindner:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Just to get back to the preschool years because once they're 16, 17, it's really hard to deal with it, they're going through a divorce in the court system. But those little ones and the toddlers that are going through it and they're saying, "Mommy's house and Daddy's house." And, "I don't like insert woman's name here, who comes over and holds Daddy's hand." And, "I don't like insert name here, who comes over and yells at me when he's barbecuing at Mommy's house." Or whatever the case may be. How do you suggest parents deal with when the other parent is bringing a third party around, that the kid is giving you what appears to be negative thoughts about them or they don't like it?
Danielle Lindner:
I think you need to validate their feelings. Let them know... You don't just say, "You're okay. You're okay." Because maybe they're not, and maybe that person's not okay either. So I would ask them, "What makes you feel uncomfortable?" Or, "Why do you say that? What is it about? Is it just because you feel bad about Daddy?" Maybe is it just a sadness that they wish it was Daddy there or Mommy there? Or are they really a pedophile or something? You don't know.
Seth Nelson:
Well, that's where the parent that's hearing this goes-
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
They go to the absolute worst like, "They yelled at me." They think they're screaming all the time. Now, it could have been they did yell at you because you were about to burn your hand on the grill.
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So it's hard to get that context because they're little, they don't know how to express it or to say it or to say, "You know what? I was playing, I got a little close to the grill. My ball was..." "I got yelled at, I don't like it, I cried." Even though it might've been the thing to do to save the child from getting burned, but people always go to the worst. It's human nature.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. I think the best thing to do is to call the ex and say, "Hey, this is what I'm hearing. I'm sure it's nothing but what happened? Give me a little context because John's really upset."
Seth Nelson:
On that note, you can say, "John seemed upset when he came home. I don't know what happened. He was kind of quiet or crying. I asked him what happened, he didn't say anything." Because otherwise, sometimes when you say what they say, then the next thing you get back is, "I can't tell you, it's a secret."
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right?
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
The other parent will say, "Don't say." The mom, "What happens at my house, it's a secret."
Danielle Lindner:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? And back to when Kai was little, it was, "There's no secrets at this house. Anything that happens at this house, you can always tell Mom." I said, "You might want to wait to tell her what her birthday present is till after she opens it, but if you want to spill the beans, go ahead." You would have to have those conversations, but that kind of green light of, "Anything that happens here, you can tell Mom." "Anything that happens here, you can tell Dad." Just makes it where they don't feel like they're picking sides telling one parent about the other, tattletaling, all those words that the little ones use.
Danielle Lindner:
It's so important to never tell your kids that something is a secret because that can just lead to some really, really bad things down the road. It's so damaging. So you just hope that the other parent is not going to put that kind of responsibility and false ideas in the child's head because that carries on over to so many things. If they get into abusive relationship, they'll be like, "Well, I guess I better not say anything about it." It can be much worse than just this little slice of time.
Pete Wright:
You have suddenly magically access to a sticky note that when you write it, will automatically be put on the refrigerators of every divorcing parent. What would you write on that to help ground them in their relationship with their kids going through a divorce? What's the daily reminder?
Danielle Lindner:
I would say be consistent and be kind.
Pete Wright:
That's perfect for a sticky note.
Seth Nelson:
I like it. Yeah, that's lovely. But consistency is really key because then-
Danielle Lindner:
It's so key.
Seth Nelson:
... then they just know what to expect. And especially, if you're being kind. Look, there's a reason why some kids ask for the water and then I have to go to the bathroom and then read me another book because they never get told no and the light never goes off. At some point it's, "Nope, go to bed." Right. And then they know. Look, part of growing up is pushing the boundaries, seeing what you can, quote-unquote, get away with. You're getting your independence. All that is healthy and consistency is really key. And the more consistent you can be at both houses.
Danielle Lindner:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Like, "Three books. You get to pick three books. Here's what we're doing." That makes it even better because the other thing that kids don't realize is when you're in a good relationship with your former spouse and you're co-parenting and raising kids together, even though they don't live in the same house, you should be talking. And you'll be like, "Hmm, no, I talked to Mom." And they're, "What do you mean?" "I have a phone. It actually dials out, it rings on the other side." Right? So they're always a little bit shocked by that.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. The biggest thing that I see in a preschool that really affects kids that parents don't realize is that they don't consistently pick the kids up on time because now they have a different schedule and they're getting confused with each other. And who's picking up John today? And who's dropping off John today? And a kid's sitting there for an hour after the school closes. And that's just they never forget that.
Seth Nelson:
I'm just going to tell you, blessed be my parents' memory. And my mom who's passed, my parents were married for many, many years till the day that my mom passed. She left me at the school till I was the last one picked up. It was seven o'clock at night. They were still waiting. And you're right, never forgot it.
Danielle Lindner:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
It explains some things.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
That explains a lot of things about me. Why I'm always early.
Pete Wright:
Anyway, I got one more question. We talked about some of the signals, right? Recognizing the signals of kids that are going through this, that they may be struggling with some things that even though they're not talking about it. How do you know as a parent or if you're working with, I guess your divorce team, how do you know when it's time to introduce a counselor to the process? When do you bring in help specifically for your kids?
Danielle Lindner:
I think it's not a bad idea to bring help in right away, as soon as you know things are changing, it can't hurt. And maybe it's one or two sessions and things are fine or maybe it's check-ins once a month. But I think it's great because just especially, for a kid to have a third party that's not invested in one parent or the other, it's great for them. And then having that session where both parents, if they can tolerate each other, can come in and then hear what the child is concerned about or talking about, I think that's really helpful. And starting that just as soon as you know you're separating, I think you're going to start off with a strong base if you do it right away. And if you need more, you need more. And if you don't, you don't.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Tell us about the book.
Danielle Lindner:
So my parenting book is called, The Parent's Pocket Guide to Surviving the Preschool Years : One Challenge at a Time. It talks about specifically things that parents struggle with during those preschool years. Not specifically divorce, but there's a chapter on bad news, and that's one of the things. So it talks about all those various things. And then I also have 16 children's books, books that are specifically for kids. And I have a book about a little turtle named Tango whose parents got divorced. And it's all in rhyme and it talks about how he was very sad, but they just felt that it was best for them to do this thing. And these are two parents that obviously had a good divorce. And then it talks about, "You're going to get this room and that room and this toy and that toy." And it just tries to explain it a little bit in a positive way.
Seth Nelson:
It can be positive because-
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
... if parents are not doing well in their emotional ties to each other as a married couple, that's going to also impact your kids.
Danielle Lindner:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm not advocating for divorce here. Everyone knows what I do for a living, but I don't divorce people that come to me and say, "We really want to stay married." Right? So-
Pete Wright:
Well, it's too bad you walked in.
Seth Nelson:
And that's right.
Pete Wright:
Nobody walks in and walks out not divorced.
Seth Nelson:
I just believe... A little Hotel California there, right? So I just believe that kids really deserve to see what a positive relationship looks like.
Danielle Lindner:
[inaudible 00:36:27].
Seth Nelson:
And that's going to impact them more than almost anything is who you marry and who you decide to spend your time with and your life with.
Danielle Lindner:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
And there's studies that show successful people surround themselves with successful people, right?
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And so you got... Be intentional about where you spend your time and who you spend your time with and why you spend your time with people. And that goes straight down to who you decide to be with.
Danielle Lindner:
Absolutely. And in the book, I actually start out where the turtle hears the mom crying through the bedroom door, and he doesn't like that. "Why is Mom always crying? Why is Dad always sad?" And then at the end of the book, they're doing family activities together as divorced parents and they're all happy. And so right to your point, no child should live in a home where everybody's sad or angry or yelling all the time because they're never going to know what... they'll think that's what relationships should be.
Pete Wright:
Do you have any... I want to end on a positive note. Do you have any right off the dome, the best thing a child has ever said to you about how their parents handled their divorce?
Danielle Lindner:
Oh, let's see. Well, one child said to me, "I love this divorce because I get two computers and two phones."
Seth Nelson:
That's such a [inaudible 00:37:56].
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:37:58] the spirit.
Danielle Lindner:
Yeah. And, "When Mom punishes me and takes away my phone, I still have my phone at Dad's."
Pete Wright:
All right. I'll take it. Why not? Kids are capitalists.
Seth Nelson:
That's the perfect kid answer though.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Really.
Danielle Lindner:
That's great.
Seth Nelson:
Like, "Hey, I'm good."
Danielle Lindner:
Hey, they don't say, "I'm very glad that they're happy now and in a very positive relationship."
Pete Wright:
Right.
Danielle Lindner:
It's all about I got a new unicorn.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I love it. Well, Danielle, thank you so, so much for your time today. This was super fun. And where do you want to send... Obviously, we'll put links in the show notes for the books. Where do you want to send people to learn more about you and your work?
Danielle Lindner:
They can go to @parentingtakespractice on Instagram and everything is there.
Pete Wright:
There you go. It's an account.
Danielle Lindner:
Because it really does.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. It's an account and an aphorism. It's fantastic. So thank you so much, Danielle.
Danielle Lindner:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
This was great. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. Don't forget, you can always visit howtosplitatoaster.com and submit your questions for Seth and our guests about our topics. We would love to hear from you. So we're starting to pile up those questions for those listener questions episodes that we love so, so much. On behalf of Danielle Lindner and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you next time right here on How to Split A Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
How to Split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T. Bless & the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.