Breaking Free: How to Stop Family Patterns from Sabotaging Your Divorce with Jerry Wise
Breaking Free from Toxic Family Patterns During Divorce
In this compelling episode, Seth Nelson and Pete Wright are joined by Jerry Wise, a family systems coach with over 45 years of experience helping people heal from dysfunctional and emotionally immature family dynamics. They explore how divorce often isn't the hardest part of ending a marriage—it's breaking free from the dysfunctional patterns that shaped you before you even got married.
Seth and Pete dive deep with Jerry into the concept of emotional enmeshment and how it affects divorce proceedings and co-parenting relationships. They discuss practical strategies for recognizing when you're emotionally fused with your ex-spouse and techniques for breaking free from these patterns. The conversation takes fascinating turns as they explore how unresolved family-of-origin issues can impact current relationships and how to prevent passing these patterns to the next generation.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do I know if I'm emotionally enmeshed with my ex?
What can I do when I feel triggered by my ex's behavior?
How do I protect my children from inheriting dysfunctional relationship patterns?
Key Takeaways:
Focus on yourself and your healing instead of blaming your ex
Learn to respond rather than react to triggering situations
Work on breaking unhealthy patterns before they affect your children
This episode offers invaluable insights for anyone navigating divorce or struggling with challenging family dynamics. Jerry's expertise, combined with Seth and Pete's practical legal and personal experience, provides listeners with actionable strategies for breaking free from toxic patterns and building healthier relationships moving forward.
Links & Notes
Find Jerry on his website, Instagram, or YouTube
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a Divorce Podcast about saving your relationships from True story FM. Sometimes your toaster divorces you, sometimes it divorces your entire kitchen.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to show everybody, I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today we're talking about how to break free from toxic family patterns, especially the ones that show up during divorce and quietly shape everything from co-parenting to your own sense of identity. We are joined by Jerry Wise, a family systems coach who spent more than 45 years helping people heal from dysfunctional and emotional immature families. Jerry, welcome to the toaster.
Pete Wright:
Hey, Jerry.
Jerry Wise:
Hey, it's nice to be here. Nice to meet both of you and looking forward to this very much already.
Pete Wright:
Me too. This is going to be great. I made the gag in the beginning that your toaster divorces you and sometimes your whole kitchen. The idea here is idea here, what if leaving the marriage was the easy part? That's the premise. What if the divorce itself was the easy part? And untangling yourself from dysfunctional dynamics that shaped you before you even got married is the hard part. And I am very eager to hear what you have to say, Seth, why are you already shaking your head at me? The first episode of this new season? And you're already on me.
Seth Nelson:
I am not shaking my head at you. I'm shaking my head. You happen to be watching me do so There's a difference, counselor. Okay.
Pete Wright:
This does not please the court, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
I'm thinking Jerry's going to put me on the couch and say, "Tell me about your childhood." Because this is like peeling back the layers. And so the shaking of the head might've been a little nervous twitch of mine,
Pete Wright:
A fear response. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
No, I like it. I like that.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, of course you do. Jerry, am I right about that? Are we going to unpeel some layers here?
Jerry Wise:
Well, of course. And of course it's my job to make everyone feel uncomfortable. That's certainly been my job for 45 years.
Seth Nelson:
Well, fuck man. You are good at it already.
Jerry Wise:
The problem is I had to make myself uncomfortable as well, and I've gone through a divorce, so I have personal knowledge of that for sure, and the great fun that goes along with it. And also the desire to not carry over to my son and to my granddaughter, and to other generations, things that I had not resolved myself. And that's why I tell everyone, "Well we all have issues and we're all going to have issues. Whatever kind of divorce you're had, there's going to be issues." And just like with kids, hey, divorce affects kids. Okay. A lot of things affect kids. Not getting a divorce affects kids. So if you're trying to look, okay, well, we don't want to affect our kids. Well, how is your marriage affecting your kids? The awful marriage that you have?
Seth Nelson:
I had this exact conversation with a potential client just the other day, Jerry, they were saying, "I don't want this to impact my children." And I said, "Well, it's going to impact your children."
Jerry Wise:
It already is.
Seth Nelson:
"But staying married and not showing them a, loving, caring relationship also is impacting them."
Jerry Wise:
And what I do is I try to help them evaluate the positive and negatives for staying and the positive and negatives for going. And you need to evaluate all those. What are the downsides of staying married for your kids and for your family? What are the downsides? Also, we want to look at what are the downsides of getting a divorce?
Pete Wright:
Sure, sure. Let's start with some terms. Educate us, because Seth only knows words that relate to the law, and I only know words that relate to superhero movies. So let's start with enmeshment as a form of dysfunction. What is enmeshment and what is it in the context of divorce?
Jerry Wise:
Enmeshment is unresolved emotional connection to family of origin, to spouse, to kids, to actually, anybody you can be enmeshed with a friend. Emotional enmeshment is where we are fused with them emotionally. Let me give you an example. I talk with this. Let's say a woman she's been, or no, a man. Let's take a man. A man later in his years, he's been divorced. And he says, "You mean the bitch?" And I'm going, "Oh, so you're still enmeshed with her because why is that matter now? Why are you still intense with her? Is that what you want? So you guys aren't even divorced yet now, even though the divorce happened six years ago, you're still not divorced because you can't even say her name."
Pete Wright:
Okay. Okay.
Jerry Wise:
"So you still got her ring on your finger?"
Seth Nelson:
Oh, man, that was awesome. Jerry. Did you see the light bulb go off above Pete's there?
Pete Wright:
Well, you know what happens? So I've got dear friends who got a divorce last year, and I've been thinking about this because he, my buddy goes to his mother after she finds out that they're getting a divorce. And the first thing that she says to my friend is, "Is she divorcing you because of me?"
Seth Nelson:
Well, Jerry's head just grew about three sizes just now.
Jerry Wise:
She's divorcing you because your mom came up with that question and you grew up with that mom.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Is that an example of emotional enmeshment beyond the-
Jerry Wise:
Oh, heaven's, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And there's lots of enmeshment terms and fusion terms that indicates that.
Seth Nelson:
So Jerry, I'm going to give you a, we've talked about this on the show before, Pete, but one of the things when I was divorced and dating, I would work really hard to not have my date talk about their divorce because they would say, "Oh, what do you do for a living?" I'd say, "I'm an attorney." I would not say divorce attorney. And then they would say, "Well, what kind?" I'd say, "Divorce attorney?" Oh my God, my divorce was the worst. And then they would start telling me all about their ex. And my view was why are you inviting your ex-spouse into this dinner that we're having? To your point, you're enmeshed with them still. And to my point, I deal with this all day every day, and now I'm on a date. I don't want to feel like I'm at work. And I would literally be like chair. I'd be like, "Check place. We're good."
Jerry Wise:
Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
But people just fall into it. What can you do to get, I guess unenmeshed?
Jerry Wise:
And divorces don't end with the judge.
Seth Nelson:
Correct.
Jerry Wise:
There is a legal divorce. Of course I understand that. Of course. And that's a legal final thing. But the emotional divorce is far more important for you and your kids than the legal papers, though I mean, those may be very important. Let me give you another example about enmeshment and you just used one. "Oh my divorce." And they go into their whole complaining and blame it. And often people after they've gotten a divorce will complain and blame, "I'm having a bad day today. And that was because of that stupid husband of mine that I got divorced from, just made my life a living hell or miserable." That's enmeshment talk. Here's self-differentiation talk. "I'm feeling sad today, but I'm working through it."
Pete Wright:
Not once. Did you just say anything about the former spouse?
Jerry Wise:
What function is that going to play? What role is that going to play to help you? Blaming is a way to avoid you, not help you. Blaming does not help you.
Seth Nelson:
And the other thing about that, Jerry, when people come talk to me, they'll spend a lot of time telling me about their soon to be former spouse or their former spouse if it's a post-judgment case. And I work really hard to tell them, "Listen, I represent you. I care about what's happening to you, and every time you're talking to me about them, I'm not being able to help you. What are the legal issues I'm trying to define? And I want you to do something." That's exactly what I tell them, "I want you to do something that I think will be hard for you to do that you haven't done for a very long time. Focus on yourself, not somebody else." Is that good advice I'm giving Jerry?
Jerry Wise:
Because that's the number one advice in terms of not passing on generational and divorce issues, is self-differentiation. Heal yourself first, focus on yourself.
Seth Nelson:
Just to make it clear. That's good advice I'm giving. Is that a yes?
Jerry Wise:
That's very good advice. It's excellent advice.
Pete Wright:
So he's not, God dammit, Seth. He's not on the stand.
Jerry Wise:
Can you clarify that answer for me and repeat it?
Seth Nelson:
But first show out of the gate, I got Jerry telling me I'm right and you're just annoyed.
Pete Wright:
Let me just say this because I think you're getting to the thing that is, I think most important for our listeners, which is, look, there is this emotional divorce that you're going to have to wade through that's really, really important. And there's the practical legal divorce that you're also going to have to wade through. And if you can't get your shit straight, that can get in the way of the legal divorce in some really practical and unfortunate ways.
Jerry Wise:
Oh, never, never does that get in the way, right? Right. Seth never do emotions.
Seth Nelson:
Sarcasm.
Jerry Wise:
Right.
Pete Wright:
And so I want to figure out how we break free from that sort of toxicity. Are there things you can do once you're aware of it, or if you see these patterns in yourself, or is there more Seth should be doing as counselor-at-law to say, "Hey, look, I'm seeing some patterns and I think you need to go talk to a professional about this before we can do your divorce."
Jerry Wise:
Oh, absolutely. And in fact, if you don't do that, we'll probably be back here again. Do you want to be back here again? You're going to marry the same guy or girl with a different name because you're still you.
Seth Nelson:
But what can they actually do? So I have a client in my office talking about the other spouse. They're totally enmeshed. What can I tell them? "Look, let's focus on you," but what can they physically do? Or what do they have to mentally do to start breaking that down?
Jerry Wise:
Stop blaming. It's okay to have feelings, but make them your feelings and not blame them for your feelings. Have them, but don't connect them to them. Otherwise, you're just continuing the enmeshment, which probably got you to the divorce in the first place.
Seth Nelson:
But then they say, "But listen, I don't feel this way while I'm talking to other people, Seth, but when he does this or she does that, it just triggers me and I'm there."
Jerry Wise:
I believe you a hundred percent. I believe that it triggers you. How about we work on your triggering and to reduce that triggering or what I call reactivity, because your reactivity is going to keep you enmeshed with him. That's what reactivity does. That's its purpose.
Seth Nelson:
So they shouldn't react, they need to respond, which gives some thought?
Jerry Wise:
Right? Correct. That self-differentiation is self-definition, self-regulation, and self-awareness, what we focus on during a divorce, not your husband, your wife, how bad they were, what they did wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which won't get you anywhere for helping you with the next relationship or even your kids.
Pete Wright:
I can kind of feel though, in a space of emotional compromise of a divorce when you're already feeling guilt and shame and that reactivity how it might seem impossible to get to the next stage without the emotional litigation of the last stage. How am I supposed to get to the next piece if I don't get it out, everything that I've been going through?
Jerry Wise:
Well, but now you're talking about a hydraulic view of emotions that the steam is building up. And if I don't get that out, we don't know of any scientific evidence for that.
Pete Wright:
That Jerry, I'm just going to blow.
Jerry Wise:
No, no, I know, I know. And I said, "I know you've been blowing for decades now let's try something different. And in fact, you were blowing when you were a kid more than likely in terms of having the same way of thinking." And by the way, I don't want to say I'm not empathetic or caring about people's feelings myself. I'm cold and I'm cold as ice.
Seth Nelson:
No, you're cold, Jerry, you're just cold, really cold.
Jerry Wise:
I know how difficult it is. I know how I felt. But you can deal with your feelings in a self-differentiated way, not in a other focused way.
Seth Nelson:
And here's what I think is really the trick of this. As hard as it is to do self-reflection and to look and to make change, it's totally in your control. It's totally in your control where you cannot control the other person that's triggering you. So as hard as it is, you can do it. It takes practice, it takes time. You're not going to get the perfect swing every time. You might make a mistake along the way, you might get triggered and not be able to handle how you get triggered and you might blow up. But each time it gets a little better. It's up and down like the market. It's not a steady progression, but over time you'll get better at it and it'll be less and less and less, and it's just not going to impact your life the way that it is now.
Jerry Wise:
Often they would say, "But I don't know how to do it." Of course, I usually will then advise them, it's not a how question, it's a win question because it's a win. And that I tell them, "You don't have to do it perfectly." Just as you were saying, Seth, it doesn't have to be a perfect, in fact, anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. So let's start with poorly. Start poorly being less reactive. Start poorly being more calm. You'll find that your kids will thank you. You'll thank you. And maybe even the courts will thank you.
Pete Wright:
We've dropped the word triggering several times and it just gets me into this cycle of pattern or the patterns that we exist in that we continue to play over and over and over. And I'm thinking about what are the strategies for interrupting the patterns when we need to break that cycle at the immediate moment, we're in court, we're being triggered, we're watching our former spouse on the stand, and they're saying something that is absolutely getting under our, just wedging, under our fingernails, and we are in a space of enmeshment in that moment. How do you provide a pattern interrupt in that context?
Jerry Wise:
Okay, let's a liken it to drinking alcohol. If I'm an alcoholic and Alcoholics drink a lot and have a hard time saying no, if not, an impossible time, saying no. And they go to the bar, sit in front of the bar, they get the drink, and now they're triggered because they want to drink it wrong time to try to be dealing with triggers.
Seth Nelson:
You're too far down the road.
Jerry Wise:
You're going to have the drink. You're too far down the road. So I want to work before get to court. Let's imagine what's going to be happening and how are you going to control you? Because I'm already going to tell you what's going to happen. Your husband, you know your wife, you already know. Let's use the predictive ability that we have about their behavior and learn to help ourselves.
Seth Nelson:
Jerry, you're singing my song here. This goes back, Pete, to last season, preparing for depositions and preparing for trial. Everything that happens in the courtroom, you know your former spouse or ex-spouse or soon to be is going to just totally lie and say nasty things about you.
Jerry Wise:
It's a given. Don't go, "Oh, he just said this. I feel horrible." He's been saying that for five years.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. So Jerry, one of the things I tell my clients is the court, the judge sees everything in the, and how you respond impacts the decision that the court will ultimately make. So I actually give them physical and mental tasks where I want to have a pen and a pad of paper in front of them, and I want them taking notes. And when they're getting emotionally triggered, I'll have them write out two plus two equals four. Four plus four equals eight. Because then that math side of the brain less emotional and it keeps people calm.
Jerry Wise:
"But you're denying me my feelings. He's being so wrong in what he's saying."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And they say, "I don't give a shit. It's court."
Jerry Wise:
I don't give a shit. Exactly. And not all feelings are equal.
Pete Wright:
That's right. Okay, talk more about that.
Jerry Wise:
And not all feelings are true feelings. The feelings you're having with your husband who's on the stand lying about you is a systems feeling. It's not your true genuine self-feeling because more than likely, your self-feelings of genuineness would be sadness, grief, that not, I want to strangle him and poke his eyes out.
Seth Nelson:
On the advice of counsel, which we don't give legal advice on the show. Do not do that.
Jerry Wise:
Do not do that. And so I've even had lawyers send me clients to say, "They need to deal with some emotional issues. So they'll do better in a court situation because we also do intentional funerals. You need to lay your husband down on the couch with pillows and do a funeral for him so you can get him out of you so you can be more yourself. And so getting him out of you is more important than almost anything else. Even if he's a great guy, you're not going to be married to him. I mean, that's going to not be the same. And I always talk about getting our family of origin out of us. Because also what I found is, let's say the guys on the stand saying lies about the wife. My hunch is that was also happening in her family of origin.
Seth Nelson:
Got you.
Jerry Wise:
And that's why she's so triggered. And if you ask her, "When did you feel this before when you were growing up?" "Oh my gosh, that's what my dad always did." Or whenever.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
So here we are confronting not just the spouse lying on the stand. We're confronting a generation.
Jerry Wise:
That's why it's so hard or they think of it as so hard.
Seth Nelson:
Gotcha.
Pete Wright:
Well, and also it leads us to, in the context of divorce, it leads us to how we think about the role model that we are providing our own kids, people who listen to this show, if they're dealing with a divorce and dealing with a potential future of co-parenting, are they also going to be handing down the fights they've never finished?
Jerry Wise:
Yes. And it is hard to have a fight if one person won't. So you can decide you're going to be the one who's not and who's going to be not reactive. And it's hard to do that. I'm not saying it's easy to do that, but it's hard if we don't work at that because then we can end up alienating the parent from the kids. Now the kids are mad at us 15 years later because we alienated them from their dad or their mom or whatever. Now we have residual alienation that becomes a problem. So we definitely don't want to triangulate kids. Stop telling your kids about your marriage. Get them out of your marriage. Stop. You certainly can tell them we're having a divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, I see that a lot, Jerry, where parents start treating children as their best friend, not as a parent-child relationship.
Jerry Wise:
Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
And that is just terrible for kids. It's quite frankly, terrible for the parents as well.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Your kids are in your family, not your marriage.
Jerry Wise:
Correct. And then they'll get to go through their divorce because of what you're doing.
Seth Nelson:
So basically what I'm hearing you say, Jerry, is if you want to keep NLG divorce and family law and business for the next two or three generations, keep doing the shit you're doing.
Pete Wright:
Because you're doing fine.
Jerry Wise:
You want to keep me have clients, keep other people have clients. We're going to be here for you.
Seth Nelson:
Got it.
Pete Wright:
The mental health and divorce industrial complex. Thanks you.
Jerry Wise:
Thanks you very much for your efforts. And I've even told people that I said, "Your kids and grandkids will be to see me. Is that what you want? Because I have plenty of work. And I'm not saying that to shame you. I'm saying it you to focus, it's not shaming." I've made all the mistakes. I've messed up.
Seth Nelson:
There's no judgment here. It's just saying, "Here's how you're reacting, think about a response. There's a different way. And do you want to feel the same way you feel now, a year, two years, five years, 10 years down the road? If the answer is no, then you have to make a change. And the only way to get that ball rolling on making a change is to get the ball rolling. You got to try." And to your point, Jerry, "You're not going to be good at it the first time or the 10th time or the hundredth time."
Jerry Wise:
But your kids will thank you. They will notice a difference. I've seen kids and families on both sides. If someone chooses non reactivity and staying calm even when they don't want to be, it's felt across the board because the system.
Seth Nelson:
Jerry, is it ever surprising to you how quickly kids Turnaround, so to speak, they're dealing with a parent that has enmeshment, is not handling their emotions when they get triggered and then they start working, they start responding. They take deep breaths, they have physical exercises. They do. And then is it ever surprising you like, hey, is it a month, two months, three months, six months, a year, and the kids are back? It happens sometimes more quickly than you would expect it to because the kids want that relationship.
Jerry Wise:
They do. They definitely do. And the more mature you can be, which is another word for self-differentiation, the more mature you can be, the more of a gift you're giving your kids and more solidity, solidifying having stability because kids don't understand the whole divorce process. They don't even understand the marriage process. They're young. I mean, they haven't been married, so they don't understand the adult ins and outs of all that, and I wouldn't expect them to. But they do understand maturity, calmness, and non reactivity as a main message, which will help them through that situation and be a support to them all the way through.
Pete Wright:
I struggle. Hell, I struggle with a lot of things, Jerry. I'm a human being.
Seth Nelson:
This is not your session, Pete, this is the podcast.
Jerry Wise:
Let me tell you, [inaudible 00:26:24], let me tell you.
Pete Wright:
Let me tell you this about that. Seth got me thinking this idea that the kids are thirsty for change. They can see how quickly you make progress. And I'm wondering, if you could paint a picture of what it looks like to realize that you are ready for change in your life, you wake up and think, "Oh, I feel like I hear Jerry right now. I hear Seth that I'm in my own way in the divorce." What is the picture of change look like for somebody who's actually wondering why the hell the world's not working out for them right now?
Jerry Wise:
Sure. And we do feel that way when you go through a divorce, it's like what's a failure? Or at least a seeming failure. It's also a growth. It's growth and a failure. I mean, relationships are paradoxical.
Pete Wright:
For sure.
Jerry Wise:
And so when you decide, "Hey, I, want something better." And also you have to deal with the two different people. One is the left one and one is the leaver. And so they have different dynamics emotionally that they are going through because the leaver, the one who's leaving has been thinking about this for a long time. They've already got adjusted to some things, and now they got a new girlfriend or whatever is happening and-
Seth Nelson:
They're just farther along in the grief process.
Jerry Wise:
Exactly. They grieved a year ago before they ever talked about it at all. And then the left one now has just started this grief process of, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know." In fact, I just had someone tell me that their father, he was 10, I think he was 10 years old. His father came in on Christmas day, they opened all the gifts and said he had filed for divorce and would be leaving on Christmas day, still living at home with the kids and the wife and announced that to everyone.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah but see, Jerry, you don't tell the full story. You got to tell the full stories, they were atheists. They didn't celebrate Christmas. Isn't that true, Jerry?
Jerry Wise:
Jerry? That's right. I don't know what they were celebrating. They were celebrating gifts for sure, but it was on a Christmas day and just not a good day to be. Couldn't he have done it the day before? Couldn't he have done it the day after anything? Come on. But he was pretty much a narcissist and he was trying to be efficient because everybody was here. Oh, well, great. I'm glad you're efficient with this.
Pete Wright:
That's a terrible, terrible Christmas party. He was trying to be efficient. Jesus.
Seth Nelson:
Oh my God. I was literally trying to think why would you say it then as I was literally, I made the joke about that. And then you came up with efficiency.
Pete Wright:
Because he can be right and wrong at the same time.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Jerry Wise:
That's right. I don't have to get everybody together. I don't have to... We're all here now. I can just-
Pete Wright:
I don't have to edit my family. Yeah.
Jerry Wise:
How nice. Many times kids think, okay, you're telling me about this divorce, or of course, they've already probably known there were marital problems before you got here. Anyway, kids, all you have to do is ask the youngest child in a family therapy session or marital session, ask them What's going on with your mom and dad? They'll tell you everything. And they'll know more than the parents and probably even know more than me.
Pete Wright:
Mom and dad.
Jerry Wise:
And so kids assume that things are going to get worse from here on out, that they're not going to be good. Even if we say, "Oh, no, it's going to be better. You're going to have two Christmases, two Easters, two fourth of July's, two birthday parties."
Seth Nelson:
Kids hate that. They hate that.
Jerry Wise:
And so the issue is instead of promising something you can't promise, give them a different parent as you working on your issues, then they will be more hopeful about what's going to go forward.
Pete Wright:
So interesting, this whole conceit, and I think it goes back to how we started our conversation, which is this idea that the practical divorce, how often we get confused and we confuse ourselves. We start painting the picture of the divorce as I'm leaving my spouse, when really I'm leaving the patterns that caused me into getting into a relationship that didn't fit with my identity, I'm leaving toxicity, I'm leaving past programming, and the person that I'm leaving was really just a function of decisions made potentially poorly.
Jerry Wise:
And can I give you some other ways that people might think about that also?
Pete Wright:
Please. Yeah.
Jerry Wise:
Now this is my take on it. I'm leaving because I never resolved the emotional closeness and distance in my family of origin that still has plagued me all of my adult life. And so I'm leaving this marriage to try to fix that.
Seth Nelson:
I cannot imagine anyone ever saying that.
Jerry Wise:
Oh, they don't, they don't. That's why they have to come and talk to me. And I do believe that divorce is necessary many times. Many times.
Seth Nelson:
But let me ask you this, Jerry, let me ask you this. When they're in the thick of it though, isn't it just trying to get them through it and look, they're going to practice these things they're not going to do well. I'm going to have to prep them on how they deal in court and to even have a list of what's my goal when I talk to my lawyer about this and to get to the deep sense of not having this happen again. Isn't that best for after you're through the legal divorce process? Is it too much to do all at once?
Jerry Wise:
It is a lot, and you're right. And I would take my time with anyone. I know it takes months. I know. I don't expect everyone to just, okay, today, let's deal with all the issues of how you got here. However, it can provide some hopefulness as well, not just negativity, especially if you are a left one. And also if you're a leaving one, it might be a little different.
Seth Nelson:
Well, on that point, I do talk to my clients about You're not always going to feel this way. And I've been through divorce and I point out things that I believe are true, and I will tell them positive things that I find in their personality and their demeanor and how they're apparent. And it's all genuine because I can't lie. I mean, you can just see it on my face, except when I'm playing poker, that's a different deal, Pete. But literally, when I tell them that they start to focus on the future, not the past, and you can see a shift in their body language. And so getting people, it's really hard, but getting people going through this process to figure out what your goals are and start looking towards your future, which will not look anything like you expected it to look just the month before someone filed without you knowing.
So there is an adjustment there, but saying, "Look, the vision that you had of how your life would be was you trying to look into a crystal ball because things always change." And so you really have to say, "Look, this changed, but I'm going to put forth a different vision of my future where I can be content, I can be satisfied. I can become more engaged in things that I wasn't able to do because now I've got more free time on my hands, or I don't have to decide that what restaurant I have to go to based on what they want to do, and I want to eat healthier or whatever the case may be." You get a lot of control back in your life when you just make decisions for you. And you don't have to at this moment, think about anyone else.
Jerry Wise:
"But I want my husband back. I don't want to eat. I don't want to have to choose." Of course, there'll be people who will say that as well, but you're right, and you're making a very good point because you are futurizing in a positive way because you've been through it. You can talk about that. I can too. And I can say, "Hey, this is not going to be how you're going to feel in the future. It really isn't."
Seth Nelson:
But you got to do the hard work.
Jerry Wise:
But you got to do the hard work and you can get this divorce out of you.
Pete Wright:
It's fascinating. I wonder how often, in your experience, how often do you see people who start doing this kind of work and that leads to a divorce? Because I can totally imagine somebody going down this road of identifying who they are and what they want in their lives and realizing, "Oh my God, it's not my husband,"
Jerry Wise:
The American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In their ethics, you are supposed to tell them this work may be hazardous to your marriage. And you need to know that. And so you need to come into it with your eyes wide open. I'm not wanting to end your marriage, and I don't want to end anybody's marriage. I don't want to make every-
Seth Nelson:
I do.
Jerry Wise:
Really?
Pete Wright:
Seth's work is also hazardous to your marriage.
Jerry Wise:
He has some unresolved issues to do.
Seth Nelson:
Dude, there is not enough time on this podcast or any podcast, Jerry, to deal with those. We're not, we're not doing that today.
Jerry Wise:
But they do. You can even go read that. And I have to tell people, "Hey, let me tell you from what you've told me on the first session, and we've talked about all your genogram and we've talked about a bunch of things," I'm going, "Now, you know, guys could grow apart because you may grow at different levels. You may grow at different... So it depends on how much work you want to put into this relationship and to keep it together. I will not advise you to get a divorce. I never do that. It's not my place to advise. You should get a divorce."
Seth Nelson:
That's my job.
Jerry Wise:
With abuse, that's your job, with abuse and things. Okay, we've got some,
Seth Nelson:
Sure.
Jerry Wise:
There are some reasons.
Pete Wright:
There are some reasons to step in, sure.
Jerry Wise:
But in general, your marriage is not mine. I will work with you until you're bleeding from your hands.
Seth Nelson:
And I don't really advise people to get divorced. I am not in the business of having people get divorced that don't want to get divorced unless the person coming to me doesn't want the divorce, but the other person does. Takes two people to get married, only one to get divorced.
Jerry Wise:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
But the key is when they come to me, I ask about what they're looking for in their lives when they're struggling. And then I say, "Look, if you don't want to feel the way you want to feel now two years from now, you got to make a change. Now, maybe that's marriage counseling. Maybe that's working on this. Maybe that's, have you done everything or is your foot already out the door and you're like, I'll just go through the motions." But it's a lot of interesting dynamics that happen, Jerry, and you're framing them really well for our listeners.
Jerry Wise:
That's wonderful to hear. When we talk about self-differentiation, it's not my job to decide things for you. It's my job to be a reflector of the objective for a picture that I see and that we deal with reality. Because if you deal with reality, you can stay together with reality. You can divorce with reality, but I want you to stick with reality. We got to stick with reality. And my job is to say, "Hey, you just said, well, when he changes, he'll then love me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now you already have a, he's got to change before in the last 10 years, he's not done any of that changing."
Pete Wright:
Right. Relationships love conditionals, I hear.
Jerry Wise:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And they always work. And they always work the conditionals. And they always work.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, they always work. This has been fantastic, Jerry. Thank you so much for doing this. Real quick, tell the people where they can go find out more about your fantastic work.
Jerry Wise:
I've got a website, jerrywiserelationshipsystems.com. I'm on YouTube, Instagram, all the social media everywhere. In fact, I usually just tell people, type in my name and fortunately it will come up.
Pete Wright:
Good for you.
Jerry Wise:
Just jury wise.
Pete Wright:
Excellent.
Jerry Wise:
And that will come up and I've got a free training. I would've a free training program for all of your listeners. All they have to do is go to the website right on the front page of the website. They can join that free training, cost them nothing.
Pete Wright:
Excellent.
Jerry Wise:
84 minutes of talking about self-differentiation, wholeness, healing, maturity, and making a billion dollars.
Pete Wright:
It's outstanding. All on the back of free. We will put all the links in the show notes to get to you. The aptronymically named Jerry Wise, thank you for hanging out with us today.
Jerry Wise:
Thank you so much.
Seth Nelson:
I was looking for the Wisecrack all day.
Jerry Wise:
Do you know what my sign-off is on my videos?
Seth Nelson:
What's that?
Jerry Wise:
Thanks for watching today and be wise,
Pete Wright:
Thank you everybody for listening to the show. We sure appreciate you. Don't forget, you can head over to howtosplitatoaster.com. There's a button right there. You can ask a question. This is the first episode of our new season, season 11. I can't even believe it. We are thrilled to have you listening and sending your questions. We're trying to stock up. We're squirrels stocking away questions for a winter feast, so bring in those questions. We'll get them on a Q&A episode coming soon. On behalf of Jerry Wise and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you next time. We're right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to Split a Toaster is part of the True Story FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson Music, by T. Bless and the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
