The Final Piece: Understanding Everything Else in the PEACE Process • Your Divorce Case
The Final E: Understanding Everything Else in Your Divorce
Family law attorney Seth Nelson and co-host Pete Wright wrap up their journey through the PEACE Process, focusing on that last E – the often-overlooked but crucial "Everything Else" component. In this episode, they break down the practical aspects of divorce proceedings that can make or break your case.
Seth and Pete dive deep into the importance of process management in divorce cases, from document preparation to courtroom proceedings. They explore how setting clear goals at the start can help navigate the emotional complexity of divorce while staying focused on what matters most. The conversation covers everything from working with paralegals as accountability partners to understanding the role of private investigators in gathering evidence, and the critical aspects of attorney fees and retainers.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do I manage the overwhelming amount of documentation needed for my divorce?
What should I expect regarding timeline and costs for my divorce proceedings?
How do attorney retainers work and what are my financial obligations?
Key Takeaways:
Start with your end goals and work backward to create an effective strategy
Make time for your case and utilize support staff as accountability partners
Understand the true timeline of divorce proceedings - even "simple" cases typically take 3-18 months
This episode provides invaluable insights into the practical aspects of divorce proceedings that often catch people off guard. Seth and Pete's straightforward discussion about process management, documentation requirements, and financial considerations offers listeners a comprehensive roadmap for navigating their divorce journey more effectively.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships from TruStory FM. Today we're wrapping up our journey through the PEACE process and having your toaster on hand is a non-negotiable. It's the only thing that knows how to handle heated arguments.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, well done. I thought you were going to make something about toast the everything bagel. That's where I thought you were going. You're just bringing it. Always mixing it up.
Pete Wright:
Mixing it up. I wanted to surprise you a little bit.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, so PEACE, parenting plan, equitable distribution, alimony, child support. On all of those things, we focused a lot on the substantive law. What does it mean? How do you get there? Or how do you divide up assets and debts? Is there a formula for child support? How does alimony work? Need ability to pay. Substantive law, which I think is super important for clients to understand because it gives a framework to say, "Is my substantive offer that I'm giving or receiving something that might happen in court?"
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
But the most frustrating thing in all of family law, other than opposing counsel, other than your spouse, is the process. So when we talk about everything else, there's two kind of subcategories, attorney's fees, which I'm just putting off to the side for now. We might talk about it a little bit later in the show. We might have another show about it. But really I want to focus on the process, and we've done this in other shows, but it's so frustrating and it's so easy to just go down the rabbit hole. So I just wanted to really take some time today, Pete, and explain how we believe here at NLG and I think clients and our listeners should know to talk to their lawyers about the process. What are the expectations, what are the goals? How do we get there? And just kind of go through that today. Because I think that will help explain and put some things at ease.
Pete Wright:
Okay, excellent. Where do you start that process, if not with attorney's fees?
Seth Nelson:
Well, as you know, it's love of my life. I start at the end. What I mean by that is the case will end and, let's just take a divorce, it's going to end with a divorce decree. In Florida we call that a final judgment of dissolution of marriage. So what will be contained in that document and what are my client's goals for those items to be contained in the document? And the reason that's so important to start at the end is it keeps your eyes on the prize. And so if my client says, "It's really to me that there's 50-50 time sharing. It's really important to me that we have shared parental responsibility. And it's really important to me that I keep the house for the kids and that I'll be able to afford the mortgage. And that I know I'm going to have to go back to work, but I'm trying to maximize alimony to give me a transition period." Those are my five things.
Pete Wright:
Right. It's like your checklist.
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's all items that we can talk about that will be in the final judgment. And as we gather the information through the discovery process, which we'll talk about, and get the mandatory disclosures and get the financial documents and the financial affidavits, we can start plugging in, "Well, how do we make this happen? Are you willing to give up more retirement, like we talked about an equitable distribution, to keep the house?" Well, that's a choice if that's something you want to do. So then when you check off those five things, but you find yourself still arguing or still going for more, then I can remind you and say, "Wait a minute, we got your five major things. We're now on to level two or level three. How much do we want to be fighting for this with the risk of losing something that we have on the table?" So it's really important to start at the end because you don't want to spend time arguing and looking for documents and going round and round on things that don't achieve your ultimate goal. And it's so easy to get wrapped into that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And how often do you find people lose track of those five things? Because the way you presented it to me just now seemed very clear, very simple. I come up with the things... When I reach this state, when those five boxes get checked off, I'll know we're finished. But how often do you find people get wrapped up in the process and forget they had five things and they want six and seven too, they discover them along the way?
Seth Nelson:
All the time. But I'm not bashing people going through the process because sometimes, Pete, they don't know what their top five things are because they are driven by the emotion, the shock, the fear, the anxiety, the situational depression of going through this process. So you and I sitting here on the toaster that aren't going through it, and I've made you very anxious very quickly by just trying you to figure out your name in a depo, right?
Pete Wright:
100%, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So when that gets in the way, and to have the attorney-client relationship where I can be like, "Slow down, everything does not need to be magnified. Your goal is 50-50. You are so worried about doing something wrong, it's not that one little thing is going to kill your 50-50. And we've talked about back in parenting, let's say you get 60-40," and I hate talking percentages, "If you can't have a positive relationship with your child in the short-term and long-term when they're older with 40% of the time, the extra 10 percent's not going to help you."
Pete Wright:
It's not going to matter, yeah. I can just imagine that, just knowing how I operate under stress, particularly in contentious kind of situations, that the act of being reactive would cause me to come up with a whole new list and maybe not even tell you about it until it happens. Like the emotional baggage list, like, "They do something and I need to react and respond." And that creates number six.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, immediately. Immediately. And the triggers that people have from being in these relationships for years, where you're under someone's thumb, you can never do anything right, the other person is explosive and yells and screams and manipulates and controls with money and power and all this stuff, that's not an easy cycle to break. So I make it sound simple, "Oh, just give me your five things," and you're like, "Yeah, and then you're on six and seven. This seems so rational." It's rational, but it doesn't mean that it's easy. So in no way, and this is why I leave process for last, because it's everything else, and it's actually, I think, at some levels the hardest part. Pete, I actually don't know if we've talked about this. Have you ever stepped foot in a courtroom?
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I found something here. You don't have to disclose. Okay. It might have been a little criminal conviction that we don't want to talk about.
Pete Wright:
Why is it so dry? My mouth is so dry.
Seth Nelson:
But listen, it is a foreign place. It's not like the movies, right? And literally I walk into a courtroom... And let's back up. You have to go through security. At our courthouse, if you're not a lawyer, you have to take off your belt, you got to put your phone-
Pete Wright:
It's like getting out a plane now, right? TSA.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, you're keeping everybody safe. But I'm walking in there and all I see is familiar faces because I'm there all the time. And they're like, "Counselor, how are you doing?" I'm like, "Oh, good man. Happy holidays. You have a nice Thanksgiving." And then the next thing you know, I'm up walking down the fourth floor, because that's where a lot of the family law courts are in Hillsborough County, in downtown Tampa, in the courthouse there, and I know the bailiffs. I'm saying hello. They're asking about my kid. And it puts my clients at ease. And then when I walk in the courtroom, "Nice to see you. Oh, Mr. Nelson, how are you doing?" It's all very familiar to us and people are terrified.
And the most common question I get asked when I leave the courtroom is, "What happened?" Because it's fast and you're not understanding the evidentiary objections. And we're using legal words and we're talking in what I call code, even though we all know what we're saying, the lawyers and the judges, but it's a common question, "What just happened?" And so frequently in court, I'll lean over to my client and just say, "Everything he's saying, I expected," or I'll write a note, "Just took the bait." I had one client, I leaned back, because there was me, my associate attorney, and him, and I leaned back in the chair, we're in the middle of trial, and he looks at me and I look at him and the judge can't see us, and I just wink at him and smile and he goes, "I had no idea what was going on in court. But when your lawyer looks at you, winks and smiles, it just makes you feel good." Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right, right.
Seth Nelson:
"Everything's okay, man. We're good."
Pete Wright:
Well, and so much of that is part of your job is to keep the temperature checks coming with some frequency.
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
"This is a good thing. This is a hard thing. That's all you need to know."
Seth Nelson:
So we start at the end of the process and then we work backwards. So by way of example, in equitable distribution, dividing assets and debts is really the perfect way to talk about this is, "Do you care about the wine collection? Do you care about his comic book collection that some he had prior to marriage and some he bought after marriage?" The answer might be, "No, I don't really care, but I do care about the money. And if he's saying that I can't afford to live in the house and I might need to pay him out, yeah, I might care how much those comic books are worth or how much that wine is worth because I want an offset." So sometimes early on I'll just say to them, "Listen, we don't want to value the wine collection, but what do you think it's worth? Are you going to nickel and dime us?" Because if someone has a large wine collection, it's nickel and dime compared to their net worth, right?
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
"So are you going to nickel and dime us on that? And if you are, on other stuff, then we're going to start getting that value. But now how much is an appraisal and how much is this?" That adds to the expense and that adds to the process because now you have to get an appraiser. Then you have to schedule it. Then maybe both appraisers, they're going to get an appraiser and they're going to look at the wine at the same time you're looking at the wine. How is it stored and is it stored at the right temperature? What's the history of it? There's all this stuff as opposed to, "Well, how much is this bottle worth?"
So try to figure out early on division of personal property, because that always comes up at the end when people are exhausted at mediation, "Let's try to divide that stuff now. If there's any accounts that we know are going to be divided, let's try to divide some now." Now, sometimes the other side won't do it because they want the pressure, they want the power, they want... Well then in our process, we can go to court, it's called a motion for temporary relief. "Start giving me money, start paying for my fees. Do something to even the playing field." But understand, you have to make time for your case. You have to make time for your case.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so this sounds to me like the first E, right? This sounds like we're in equitable distribution territory. Did I fall off the train? Are we still on everything else?
Seth Nelson:
A little bit. We are on everything else, but the point of the process is I'm using equitable distribution as an example on how to make the process less difficult.
Pete Wright:
Okay, bottom line, make time for your case. I get that.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Now, if your lawyer needs the documents, you need to make time to get the documents. And if it is overwhelming to you, which it will be, then you need to say, "I cannot get this on my own." Be honest. Don't explain to me why you can't get the documents. Talk to me about what we need to do to help you get the documents. Because I'm going to hear, "I have my kids, I can't get to it. I'm exhausted at night. I'm looking for a job. I got to just see my counsel to get through." I agree with all of that, but then I need you to come in and sit with my legal assistant or paralegal for two hours with your phone or computer so we can reset passwords and let's get this process going. The worrying is worse than getting it done.
Pete Wright:
Right. And we get into this space, this sort of emotional shutdown, the overwhelm that leads to shutdown where we forget that existing in an emotional space has to exist synchronously with reality, which is those documents aren't going to get themselves.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. And I always ask my clients, "Do you want to feel this way you feel now three months from now about these documents?"
Pete Wright:
Yeah, because we could make that happen by just not getting the documents. That's easy.
Seth Nelson:
Right. So the only way to get the ball rolling is to get the ball rolling. So what we can do is get you in and sit down, and we're happy to do that for you. If that helps really good people like you get through this difficult time more easily, then that's what we'll do. And if you can say, "I can only give you an hour," I'll take an hour, give me an hour, 10:00 to 11:00 every Friday until we get it done. So there's ways to do this. So being an advocate for yourself and not making your own process harder is really important. Because I can't control the other side. I can't say what they're going to do or not do. But I know that we can get our documents in on time.
Pete Wright:
And I think I want to make sure we sort of amplify the idea of having somebody come in and work with a paralegal. The idea of having an accountability buddy in this case is huge, right? It keeps you in orbit of your case and helps you move forward from somebody who is not quite so emotionally invested and still invested in helping you get to the other side.
Seth Nelson:
100%. I could not have said that better, and I've been doing this a long time, Pete. To have someone that cares about you, cares about your case, and is saying, "Let me help you with this."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, "It's okay to feel how you're feeling and we can solve a problem."
Seth Nelson:
And literally, just think about what this person's doing and what your lawyer is doing for you, if you're willing to come in for two hours and bring your email so we can reset passwords and log on, there is so much power in that because, one, that paralegal is going to be assigned to you and focused on you for those two hours. And so when I, as the managing partner have something that needs to be uploaded and due right away and they were working on it, we're not interrupting that, we're going to have someone else do it. And that's how much we respect your case. Then you'll see progress and progress just helps people breathe. The anxiety of this long list of documents is just unnerving, unnerving for people.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so accountability buddies, huge. What's next in process that we need to be aware of?
Seth Nelson:
Understanding the next step. So we're going to start, "How are we going to get to a final judgment?" Then we're going to back up and say, "Well, one way to get a settlement is we have to prepare a parenting plan and prepare a marital settlement agreement." Parenting plan deals with the kid issues, marital settlement deals with the money issues, equitable distribution, alimony, child support, attorney's fees. And we have a whole show about preparing for mediation. But to prepare for mediation, you have to have the documents on the finances well ahead of time because we want to be prepared for mediation before we get to mediation. Talking with Tammy Spar, she always tells us the best thing about mediation is everyone's focused on it at the same time. Excellent mediator, listen to that podcast. So-
Pete Wright:
It's coming, by the way. Our mediation episodes are on the way.
Seth Nelson:
So coming up, it's going to be great. But that's the magic. But you have to be prepared. You don't want to spend your mediation getting the documents we were just talking about.
Pete Wright:
Right. That's a poor use of everyone's time.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. If there's parenting issues, you don't want to be at mediation talking about, "Well, I think my spouse suffers from alcoholism," and we're hearing about this for the first time. We should have been talking about that three, six months ago, trying to say, "Well, are they willing to get on Sober Lake?" And if not, then we might have to go to court. And what's the process to get to court? We know this from other episodes, Pete.
Pete Wright:
And then along the way you're saying, "Look, how does this tie into our top five?"
Seth Nelson:
Our top five. Because your top five might be, "50-50 is okay with me if he's sober."
Pete Wright:
If he's sober,
Seth Nelson:
If he's not, then it's not okay. So how do we get to dealing with those issues? So think about it as final judgment, mediation. Now I've skipped over trial because I'm hoping at mediation we can get to a settlement, which gets us to a final judgment, and we skipped over the trial. If at mediation it doesn't settle, then you got trial prep. But we start prepping for trial right away.
Pete Wright:
If I'm your client, do I start prepping for trial right away or is that a you attorney thing?
Seth Nelson:
With me, you start prepping for trial in our initial consultation. So Pete, let's pretend we're in an initial consultation.
Pete Wright:
This never goes well for me.
Seth Nelson:
I know, but I think you're going to do well here. I feel confident. And I said, "How many kids do you have?"
Pete Wright:
I have two.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, we're talking about your kids and you will usually say the term, "My kids or my son or my daughter," and I'm going to stop you. And I'll say, "What did you say?" Look at me like I'm crazy. And you'll say, "I said my kids." I said, "Yeah, in court, when a judge hears you say, 'My kids' they view it as not the other parents' kids."
Pete Wright:
Okay. I feel like I should say, "Our kids."
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. So now you just changed the pronoun. It's, "Our kids." Right? The problem with "our kids" is it's very easy to slip back to the other pronoun, "My kids."
Pete Wright:
The kids.
Seth Nelson:
Just use their names. You'll never get it wrong when you use their names. So to answer your question, I start preparing you for trial in the initial consultation, whether you ever hire me or not. And I say, "Just take this with you." And literally every single time, I will talk to my clients and they will say, "My kids," I'll say, "Who?" And they know. And I have them practice that and just practice. It wants to become second nature.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right, right. Okay. All right. Because I think that's a thing, that's a source of nerves, when we're talking about everything else, preparing for court is an anxious term.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And the other thing I work with clients on very early on, once I start getting my head around the case and what's happening, is when you're in court, and this is all about the process, when you're in court, you're going to be telling a story. I'm telling a story to the judge through witnesses, through objection-laded testimony, through documents, right? And it's a mystery. I want the judge to write the ending that is most favorable to us. It's no secret here. So when I'm writing that story, what kind of story am I telling? What's the theme of this story? That's a conversation I'm having with my client because as we prepare, we want to reinforce the theme that we think is going to be most persuasive to the court. Is it that the other parent suffers from an alcoholism disease? Is the other parent a pilot?
Pete Wright:
Never around.
Seth Nelson:
He just can't do a 50-50.
Pete Wright:
Deployed military.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Serving our country but is living overseas. There's things, we are going to tell different stories and we need to be on the same page because I can't be asking you about alcoholism if I'm not going to be able to prove it. Maybe there's a different story to tell because that one won't be as persuasive. And you weave these themes in throughout your case. Okay? So it's really important to get on the same page because then something's going to come up in the case that might really minor, but feel really big at the time. And it might be, "Does that fit into our theme? Do we need to adjust our theme?" But you always want to be talking about that as we develop through this process together.
Pete Wright:
Sure. You're writing a choose-your-own-adventure book, really.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly, exactly. Now they're going to be, "It's not my image. I'm freaking stuck with this guy doing all this crazy shit." I'm like, "I'm with you, but let's respond, which takes thought. Let's not react." Because it's so reactive and everything is magnified. Everything is magnified. You're being questioned about your parenting, you're being questioned about your finances, you're being questioned about the decisions that you make. You're having PIs follow you or having them followed. Which is sometimes the only way you can get the information.
Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness. I don't think we've ever talked about that. You hire PIs to follow people?
Seth Nelson:
All the time. All the time.
Pete Wright:
You're just telling me now? It's season 10, man.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, man, I got to keep you on your toes. I can't give it all up in the first nine seasons.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Okay. All right. Sometimes that's how you get the information. I get it.
Seth Nelson:
But how am I supposed to prove that a parent doesn't put a two-year-old in a child seat?
Pete Wright:
You got to see it. Somebody's got to see it.
Seth Nelson:
Someone's got to see it.
Pete Wright:
Oh man.
Seth Nelson:
Someone's got to see that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? How do I prove that when you pick up your three-year-old for the weekend that you put your three-year-old with your mother, the three-year-old's grandmother, all weekend long. I'm not going to get a three-year-old to testify. The three-year-old's going to say, "I had fun at grandma's." And now what does that make you the parent, "Oh, when were you at grandma's? Oh, did you spend the night?" And you're getting trial information from your three-year-old.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Now there's better ways to say that. "What did you do with grandma?" And then you're getting information. But you can't be just questioning what's going on. And then you come to me and be like, "He fights for this time, and then he gives them to his mom." And I'll be like, "Okay, well the only way to prove that... Because grandma might lie, right? And there's other ways to do it."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, is there a scope? Are there any guardrails to what you would hire a PI to do? What are the areas? Gambling problem, alcohol problem? Are you looking at those kinds of things beyond kids or?
Seth Nelson:
Well, in alimony cases, if they're in a supportive relationship and living together, I do that all the time. How do I prove that someone's staying their morning, noon, and night, right?
Pete Wright:
Okay, okay. And this, I think, rides right on the line between something we have talked about before, which is how involved are you asking your client to be in gathering information on their soon-to-be former spouse's behavior, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yes and no. Things not to take pictures of is your co-parent when you are co-parenting together. Do not take a picture of your co-parent on their phone at the soccer game. You think, a lot of people do that, "I'm at the soccer game. He shows up, he doesn't pay attention. He's on his phone the whole time." They get their phone and they take a picture. They bring it into court. I represent the dad that's been on the phone, let's say. Here's how the questioning goes. "Ma'am you're at the soccer game for your son, right?" "Right." "And you took this picture that's already been entered into evidence." "Right, right." "And what was the reason for taking that picture?" "He's always on his phone and never paying attention during soccer." "Were you paying attention to soccer when you took that photo?"
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Like three questions.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Doesn't take very long to shoot that down.
Seth Nelson:
It doesn't take very long to turn that on you, right? But you think, "I just got to get this in." Now, is it different if a PI is on the other side of the field?
Pete Wright:
PI doesn't care about the soccer game.
Seth Nelson:
No. And he is literally there sitting there acting like he's watching his kid taking pictures and the whole time he's filming and dad doesn't look up once, comes late. Kid scores a goal, dad doesn't notice, right? So see the difference in how that gets presented to court, right? Oh, and by the way, the PI might be a video of you-
Pete Wright:
Taking a picture of somebody else, of your spouse.
Seth Nelson:
Right, or if it's your PI, maybe taking a picture of you with literally the orange slices that the kids get, being a great parent, right? So there's lots of ways. But the process part of this is, "What concerns do you have?" And under Florida family law parenting, 20 factors, let's go through them. Let's get the detail. But learning and teaching and talking to your client about what's important and what's not. Because they don't know. And it's all important. It's all magnified. I don't want to miss anything.
Pete Wright:
I can imagine if I'm not completely overwhelmed by the process, I'm going to be overly attentive to try and get you all the information you need and maybe make some judgmental sort of mistakes, judgment mistakes.
Seth Nelson:
Inevitably I tell people, "Look, I will steer you if you're telling me stuff that's not going to be relevant." But then you'll keep telling me and then I'll keep telling you it's not relevant and then you're going to tell me, "Well, the reason I'm telling you is I always feel like I have to repeat myself to validate myself," if you're very self-aware. I'm like, "Yeah, I get that. Because you've been in this relationship and that's part of your trigger and that's part of what I hope you're talking to your mental health counselor about."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Now let's go back to those five things.
Seth Nelson:
"But at my hourly rate, let's focus on telling me once and make sure I record it so we have it."
Pete Wright:
Okay, are we still in process? What else do I need to know as your client?
Seth Nelson:
So at the very beginning, let's talk about this process and how long it should take and let's get updates, because we don't want to be the contractor building a house that says it will be done in six months and it takes 24.
Pete Wright:
That seems on the nose for you right now.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. Contractor's better than that. I'm not bashing them. They're doing a good job. It's always a little frustrating. We'll blame it on the city and their lack of staff to do permitting.
Pete Wright:
All right. [inaudible 00:29:13].
Seth Nelson:
So what we're saying though is, "Okay, if we're going to go down this road and get," which we're going to talk about in later shows this season, "... a Guardian ad Litem, a social investigation," what does that do to our timeline?
Pete Wright:
Oh, for sure. Yeah, how far does that kick out the end?
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's right.
Pete Wright:
Especially if I come into you and say, "I think it's going to be pretty simple."
Seth Nelson:
Oh, hear that all the time. But by way of example, we've talked about this before, do I go to a temporary relief hearing part of the process because I need money and schedule it for a week before the trial? And you're like, "Seth, why would you do that?" And I say, "You never know why a trial might get continued." And then sure enough, we had hurricanes come through and I had a trial get continued for six months. At no fault of anyone, nobody's fault. A hurricane came through, the courthouse closed. And we got the first date available by the court.
Pete Wright:
And it's still six months out.
Seth Nelson:
Six months out. For a two day trial. So see what you can do to get this stuff resolved. So on that process is how long should it take? Now what are we asking for? Will that delay the process?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Make informed decisions on process.
Pete Wright:
And generally, what does the gap look like when you're talking to someone like me, totally new to your office, when I come in and say, "It's pretty simple divorce," and you say, "Okay, it'll be X"?
Seth Nelson:
By X's timeframe?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, average.
Seth Nelson:
Average timeframe is six to 18 months. And if you're telling me it's simple-
Pete Wright:
The look on my face is, "What?"
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly. And I said, "However, that's the average. If you're telling me it's simple and you guys are going to have this all worked out, I hope we can get it done in three. Here's the process. You can come in right now after you retain me, pay the legal fees, you have everything in your head that you think you have a parenting plan on." So come in, sit down. We'll draft a parenting plan. It'll take two hours. It might not be finalized, but part of that process is I'm going to mention stuff that you haven't thought of, and the reason I know you haven't thought of it is because I've been doing this for 17 years and hopefully this is the one and only time you're ever going to do it.
So when you're saying you're going to split a holiday, are you going to split Father's Day on Father's Day from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM? Are you going to do the whole weekend? It's just right, not right or wrong, it's a choice. But let's think about it. How does that impact the kids? What about Mother's Day? Is it going to be the same? Do we care about Memorial Day, Labor Day, Flag Day? Right? There's just things to think about and there's things that you might not know the court requires in the parenting plan.
Pete Wright:
The court requires a parenting, yeah, in the parent plan before you can do this. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But, "Hey, let's get that moving. Let's get that over. Have you decided how to just divide up all your stuff?" You go, "Yeah, it's easy. Whatever in his name is his name, and my name is my name." I said, "Okay. How long you been married?" "10 years." "Okay. Have you been working?" "Yeah." "Has he been working?" "Yeah." So he keeps his retirement, putting away in it?" "Yeah." "You've been putting away in it?" "Yeah." "Are your retirements even?" "I don't know."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Look, you can do that. It might be a win for you financially, it might be a loss for you financially, I don't know. But if you don't care, sign my CYA letter, we can get it done.
Pete Wright:
Okay. And that you think is the... You said three months. Is that what you imagined the simple, shortest divorce that you could possibly do in the state of Florida?
Seth Nelson:
Well, the reason I say three months is because in Hillsborough County, and other counties are different, when you file a case, you get a meeting with a judge called a case management conference three months out. So remember the average is... So my goal is to get your case resolved by that hearing.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. So your first time with the judge is, "Hey, we've figured it all out. Sign on the line which is dotted."
Seth Nelson:
I would love that. Now sometimes I'm at that hearing and I'm like, "Judge, they're supposed to get us our mandatory disclosures 45 days ago. We still don't have them." The judge goes, "20 more days, get them done."
Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Well now we're four months in, I still don't have documents.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Okay. I want to make sure I'm covering all of your bases for everything else. And you set attorney's fees aside, and I want to come back to it.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. You're like... That's like my second love language. I appreciate it.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Actually, my first love language is spreadsheets about attorney's fees.
Pete Wright:
About attorney's fees. Okay, I get it. I think that when you say attorney's fees, there are terms in that bucket that I want to make sure we lay out clearly so I know as a potential client what I'm going to be paying. When you say things like you are retained, what does that mean? What are the qualifications financially for a retainer?
Seth Nelson:
That's a great question. When someone hires me and they sign my fee agreement and they pay the retainer, which is the amount of money they're going to give me that I'm going to hold in an account, that's their account, it's called a trust account, I'm retained, I'm hired. If a case is filed, I will do what's called a notice of appearance. It's a formal notice to the court and anyone else I have the honor of representing you. I am now what's called counsel of record. I am on that case until the judge signs an order that I'm no longer your lawyer.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay?
Pete Wright:
You can't just walk away without the judge signing an order.
Seth Nelson:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Correct. Then the way our fee agreements work is it's a refundable retainer. A lot of lawyers don't do that in family law, they do a non-refundable retainer, which means you pay five grand or 10 grand up front and three months later you reconcile, they get to keep the money. Okay, my view is I want to earn every penny that we earn and I want to get paid for every penny earned, not a penny more, not a penny less. So Pete, we'll do easy math, you give us $10,000 on February 1st. You retained us as your lawyer, you say, "Seth, I think this is going to be a simple case." We've talked about it, I say, "Great, we'll meet on the weekend because I know you're a podcaster. You're busy all the time."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I meet you on Saturday morning from 10:00 to noon, two hours. We have prepped for it. We've done other stuff. We draft a parenting plan. We do a financial affidavit In another meeting. By the end of the month, we've spent $3,000. I send you your bill, you review your bill. It went from 10 grand down to seven because I took the three that I earned. You can look at every line item-
Pete Wright:
And that becomes earned income for you in [inaudible 00:36:23]
Seth Nelson:
Earned income. It goes from your trust account into my operating account.
Pete Wright:
Got it.
Seth Nelson:
By March, middle of March, I require my clients to replenish whatever was earned the month before. In this hypothetical, you're going to give me another three grand, you're back up to 10.
Pete Wright:
So 10 is just, what, where was that number set by? You just like to make sure there's 10 grand.
Seth Nelson:
I made easy math for you because... But sometimes we do a five grand retainer.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I heard that [inaudible 00:36:50].
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, the a little pause there. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
It was good.
Seth Nelson:
But sometimes I look at the complexity of the case. Sometimes I look at if there's a lot of different assets that will have to be valued and I know it's just going to take more time, it will be a higher retainer. So there's all different factors that go into it. We don't just make up a number. Okay, so then remember, you hired me February, I've earned 3,000 in February. March, you paid the additional three grand, you got 10 grand in there, and guess what we get? We get a signed parenting plan in March.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
We get a signed marital settlement agreement in March. You guys are the unicorns.
Pete Wright:
Sounds like I was right.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, so you're right on this. So now in March we spent 2,000 finalizing everything. I send you a bill in March, from 10 down to eight. Now I tell you, "Pete, don't replenish. Don't give me another two. There's $8,000 in your trust account. And the only thing I'm going to do is in April, we're going to have that meeting with the judge that was scheduled three months ago. It's here now. We're going to have a five minute hearing in front of the judge. At the end of that hearing, you are going to have a final judgment and you're being returned to the status of being single."
Pete Wright:
Okay. And that means you clear out the last couple hours that you're working on for that meeting-
Seth Nelson:
And so let's say you're down to, I don't know, 6,500 because we had associates do some work, draft the final judgment. Case ends, we send you the final judgment, we send you a closing letter explaining, what's next, redo your will if you need that done, follow the plan. We outline it for you so you don't have to read all the documents, the highlights of it, and we send you your final invoice and we send you any money remaining in your trust account.
Pete Wright:
And I assume all those trust accounts are operating at a high yield savings interest rate, right? Am I making money on this agreement?
Seth Nelson:
It is a great question. Under the Florida Bar rules, all the lawyer trust accounts, the interest gets swept off and given to the Florida Bar Foundation or to the Florida Bar.
Pete Wright:
What?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, yeah. And it goes to service Florida Bar Foundation functions such as nonprofit legal services.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. So just by getting a divorce in Florida, I'm doing good work.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I wouldn't say by getting divorced. By leaving your money in a lawyer's trust account.
Pete Wright:
Okay, fair enough.
Seth Nelson:
But yeah, so we don't account for any of it. It gets swept automatically under the rules and all the banks know it. So that's how it works.
Pete Wright:
Okay. This is a big expense. What are the tax implications of getting a divorce and just in terms of legal fees? Do I get to write all that off or-
Seth Nelson:
Check with your accountant, but no, there was part of the code that you might get a tax benefit or deduction for legal fees dealing solely with trying to obtain alimony. But they reformed that code. So double check with your accountant on that.
Pete Wright:
Okay, fair enough.
Seth Nelson:
But no, it's all after tax dollars, brother.
Pete Wright:
So far, this has been fascinating. Is there anything else on the docket for today in terms of everything else or are we moving on?
Seth Nelson:
Well, since it's everything else, this is not really related to divorce process, but everything else. We'll just expand it and we'll say it quietly that Andy's a really good guy. We just don't say it often.
Pete Wright:
Oh God. Is it because it's the holidays? You're soft on the holidays?
Seth Nelson:
Well, the holidays' past, we're recording it. He didn't like the gift I got him. Oh shit, I forgot to mail that gift. That's the problem.
Pete Wright:
That's the problem. It's a you problem.
Seth Nelson:
It's always a me problem, Pete.
Pete Wright:
This is actually, I think this is really fascinating just because I've always sort of lampooned your E, everything else, because it feels like, "Oh, that just broke your acronym by the time you got through P-E-A-C. But this does make sense to me. It really does. And I think you've laid it out well, thank you.
Seth Nelson:
You can lampoon me anytime, Pete.
Pete Wright:
I'm just trying to keep you on your toes as best I can. Seth, thank you for this. And thank you all for downloading, listening to the show. If this is your first time hanging out with us, it's a fine time to join us this new year. Happy New Year. I think now officially, that's the last time I'm going to say Happy New Year. We're a week in, I can be done. But I do mean it. Happy New Year and welcome. Don't forget, if you want to ask a question to the show, just head over to howtosplitatoaster.com. There's a button right there that says submit a question and we'll get it to Seth. We'll answer it on an upcoming episode in this fine year of 2025. Thank you, everybody. And we will see you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
How to Split a Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson. Music by T. Bless & The Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
