Kids First: Avoiding Divorce Trauma with Dr. Larry Waldman
Protecting Your Kids Through Divorce: A Mental Health Expert's Guide
Seth Nelson and Pete Wright welcome Dr. Larry Waldman, a psychologist with over four decades of clinical experience helping families navigate divorce. As the author of "Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex," Dr. Waldman shares crucial insights on protecting children from trauma during divorce and maintaining healthy parent-child relationships through major life transitions.
The conversation explores the often-invisible ways parents unknowingly traumatize their children during divorce, from erasing evidence of the other parent to making children emotional confidants. Dr. Waldman, Seth, and Pete discuss practical strategies for maintaining stability, fostering healthy co-parenting relationships, and ensuring children feel secure and supported throughout the divorce process. Their discussion weaves together psychological insights with legal considerations, offering a comprehensive guide for parents navigating this challenging transition.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do parents unknowingly traumatize their children during divorce?
What's the best way to handle transitions between homes?
When should older children have input in scheduling decisions?
Key Takeaways:
Keep photos of both parents visible in children's spaces
Focus on positive experiences during transitions between homes
Maintain appropriate parent-child boundaries; don't make children confidants
This episode provides essential guidance for any parent going through divorce, offering both practical strategies and deeper insights into protecting children's emotional well-being. Dr. Waldman's expertise, combined with Seth's legal perspective and Pete's facilitation, creates a valuable resource for maintaining healthy family relationships during and after divorce.
Links & Notes
Get Dr. Waldman’s book “Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex”
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships from TruStory FM. Today, you've got to stop traumatizing your toaster.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. And as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today, we're tackling one of the toughest challenges of any divorce. How to protect your kids from trauma when your marriage ends?
Our guest is Dr. Larry Waldman, a psychologist, professor, speaker, and author with over four decades of clinical experience helping families navigate divorce. He's here to share real strategies for staying grounded, staying focused, and most importantly, staying present for your children when everything else is shifting.
Dr. Waldman, welcome to the toaster.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Hello.
Pete Wright:
Oh, it's so good to have you here. Larry, thank you so much for taking the time. And we want to talk about... I think we'll start with some invisible damage, right? How parents might be traumatizing their kids without even realizing it? In your experience, what are some of the common ways that well-meaning parents handle and mishandle emotional processing of divorce, during the divorce process, with their kids?
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Aside from, of course, the more, dare I say, malicious dealings, you're right, parents do a lot of things unknowingly that are traumatizing to kids. Simple things like whenever the other partners mention a role of the ex, which tells the kid that, "All right, that person now is excommunicated and we shouldn't talk about him or her, and so on." Things like that. Limiting their contact, removing pictures in the house, even gifts that they may have given the child at one time or another. In other words, trying to almost erase that person from their lives.
Things like... Again, not purposefully. Or as the child is about to leave for, let's say, their visitation or with their time with the other parent, saying, "All right, goodbye. I'm really going to miss you. It's going to be hard," and so on. "I hope everything's going to be okay." Sending messages like that. That, "You've better watch out. Things aren't really good there. I'm going to just be sitting here all alone," and so on. That makes the child feel, "All right, should I be going? Am I leaving this person alone?" And so on.
Seth Nelson:
Larry, on that exact topic though, a couple of things you said is advice we give to clients and we bring up in court whenever we're talking about a parenting plan. Because in Florida... Check your local jurisdiction. But in Florida, one of the factors that a court has to consider is do you put your needs or your child's needs ahead of your own? Which one's coming first? And under that factor, we'll ask our clients, "Do you have any pictures of your co-parent around the house?" And it is shocking how many other clients don't have the pictures up. When we submit pictures of a child's room, we always make sure the picture of the co-parent is within the picture. And the really great clients will, if possible, when they're at events together, they'll take pictures of the other parent with the child and send them to the other parent, and then put them on those frames that are electronic, where the pictures rotate through.
So, not only do you get the one picture when the baby was born or stuff along the way, you get updated photos. And it's just good parenting. It's good for your kid and it's great in court.
Pete Wright:
There's a... I don't know. Seth, I'm going to drop some Latin on you, and I know that makes you very uncomfortable when I'm the one dropping Latin. Have you ever heard of this concept of damnatio memoriae? Anybody? This could be a great jeopardy question.
Seth Nelson:
Well, memoriae sounds like memory.
Pete Wright:
Okay. And damnatio?
Seth Nelson:
Say that word again, Pete?
Pete Wright:
Damnatio.
Seth Nelson:
That's damn shit I want to forget.
Pete Wright:
That's exactly what it is. This is an ancient Roman tradition, believe it or not, of condemnation of memory. When a, usually a senator, somebody in high power would do something cancel-worthy, right? Something not honorable. They would go about gouging out their faces from statues, and coins, and any other places to make sure they're forgotten. And you can look at these wonderful old bits of statuary in museums and you'll see entire faces that have been carved out. That's what this feels like. There is a...
We've talked about some dear friends that have just recently gone through a divorce on the show. And in the past, you go over to the original home, all of the family pictures are gone. It surprises me a little bit to hear you say that that is subversively damaging. That this idea of condemning the past memory is something that can be damaging to kids.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
This brings up a very important issue that actually comes before these questions, and that is what does divorce look like to the child? Of course, it depends on their age range, obviously. But in general, what it does for the child is it basically turns their world upside down. Many of them weren't aware that divorce was imminent. What do they have to compare it to? As far as they were concerned, they had the best mom in the world and the best dad in the world, and they had the best marriage in the world. Because of course, they knew no difference. Now, unless ridiculous things were going on like pots and pans maybe being thrown on a regular basis, maybe they'd got a hint. But when this happens, everything, frankly, is really turned around. You can't refer positively to the other person. The best dad in the world, at least that you thought, is now being disparaged and vice versa. So, all these things now are literally blowing the child's mind.
Also, as is typical, when dad leaves the house, the child is going to ask two important questions. One, "What did I do that was wrong?" Most kids feel like they're to blame, not that anyone tells them so, but that's a kid's usual thought. And two, "If dad is divorcing mom and he's leaving the house, he must be divorcing me as well." So, these are some of the things that are going on in kids' minds. And to them, it's like yeah, that black is white, round is square, up is down and so on. It really is crazy. And then what happens sometimes to complicate things, due to finances or whatever, now the kid's got to move and change schools and lose friends. How many things can we do to these poor souls to traumatize them?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, we can add a few in there, Larry. I've seen a lot of cases.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Yes. Well, I've mentioned a few, of course, already about making them feel uncomfortable about leaving, and taking away the pictures, and so on. On the other hand, some parents will make the mistake, particularly if the child is above 10 or so, of using the child as a confidant.
Seth Nelson:
Yep, we say that to our clients all the time, Larry. "You're still the parent. Don't make them your best friend."
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Yep. But that puts the kid in a very odd situation. They'll accept it, of course, because they like the comfort and the contact. But then when the parent switches now to, "Now, okay. Now, go make your bed."
It's like, "Wait a minute. I was, just a minute, your peer and your equal and your best friend, and now you're telling me to go make my bed?" That doesn't work.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, let kids be kids.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, that's a good bumper sticker. I like that.
Pete Wright:
It is. How often does this happen, Seth, in your experience when parents are intentionally or unintentionally weaponizing their kids in court?
Seth Nelson:
If you're in court on a parenting plan, it happens frequently. So when you added the words in court, I'm like, "Well, yeah, that's where it's going." Right? And what happens, especially in the modern age, if you are making your child your confidant, as Larry points out, I call it your best friend, there's going to be a lot of inappropriate text messages between you and your child, teenagers. That is bad.
And it is both ways. It is mom making a daughter the best friend, it's dad making a son. Or all of a sudden, dad's letting his little girl do anything she wants. It really changes quickly. You have to maintain that role as parent. And you are there for your children, your children aren't there for you.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
And then let's not forget what often happens in these circumstances is fairly shortly after the separation, in comes somebody new. In fact, that new person may have been the cause of the original separation in the first place. But what this does for the child now is, "Now, wait a minute. Looks like mom or dad are replaceable." It's like, "I've got Legos for parents," who's out used to say. And we do that to our kids very often.
Seth Nelson:
And not only does that get introduced usually very quickly and too soon, with no notice to the other parent. I always tell people, "You're going through a divorce, you're going to feel like you're under a microscope. So if you want to get out there on the dating world, do it on the DL, keep it down low. Don't get out there on all the apps."
And let me tell you, I've used these things in court against parents because they're saying, "I want more time with my kid," and I'm like, "Well, you didn't show up at the kids concert at school, and I find out you were on a date."
Pete Wright:
How does that demonstrate what you're trying to get in court?
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. Unless it was for work, it doesn't matter where you were. But there's a little more sting to the court, I think, when you're like, "Oh, and you're on a date?" It's not like, "Hey, I was caring for my elderly mother." Right?
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
It's a little different.
Pete Wright:
So, keep it in the family is what you're saying. As long as it's in the family, you've got an excuse.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, great, Pete. Way to go. There's criminal statutes for that but we won't deal with that today.
Pete Wright:
So, we're talking about the things that destabilize the kid's emotional wellbeing. How should we be thinking out? For people who are listening and wondering, "Okay, I know all the ways I could break my kids during the divorce process." How do I help maintain a sense of stability and security for children during a divorce? What are some of the things we can do?
Dr. Larry Waldman:
To begin with, we need to let the child know that this is about to happen. In fact, in my book, I talk a fair amount about that. Again, it depends on the age, obviously. But to let them know that things aren't working well, and that next week... Something like that. You don't say two months from now because then the kid's going to be thinking about it for a very long time. Is today the day or tomorrow the day? And so forth. And answer those two important questions that I talked about before, "That dad is not divorcing you," if he's the one who's leaving and so forth. "He's divorcing me. Well, that doesn't mean you're not going to be able to see him," and so on and so forth.
And this is a big one, "You had nothing to do with this, okay? This is not your fault." And really, really, really stress that. And then become aware of some of these things that we've talked about. Be open to the other parent having contact. Ensure that you only speak in a positive manner about him or her, things like that. Now, not roll your eyes, as I said. Or not make it appear your heart's been torn out of your body as the child is going to go to the other home. Things of that...
N fact, encourage that. And of course, if at all possible of course, keep the other environment the same. If not the same residence, the same neighborhood so the child can keep his or her friends and stay in his or her school.
Seth Nelson:
And we've talked about that before, Pete, where if you can get the same mattress, get the same pillow. Make it feel like the child's sleeping in the same bed even if it's in a different room. When you're taking your child and dropping them off and there's the exchange, it should be, "You're going to have fun. And well, I'm going to miss you too, but I'm more excited that you're going to have fun with dad or have fun with mom." Those are the conversations. "Because ultimately, if you're with me, you're going to miss dad. If you're with dad, you're going to miss me, and it's just going to make you sad. Or you could be happy that you're with dad and be happy, and be happier with me. And so, do you want to be happy all the time or sad all the time?"
And when phrase like that, especially with little kids, they're going to pick happy. When something good happens, have them call or text or take a picture and send it to the other parent. And eventually, that will get reciprocated. And if not, you're still doing right by your kid.
Pete Wright:
I want to ask a question about the developmental stages of kids and how it relates to how you treat them as a parent going through divorce, and how you treat them as an attorney. My assumption is we're talking about kids, probably what, under 10, under 12. What happens when they get a little bit older and they start demanding a little bit more agency in the process? They start feeling like, "Hey, my parents are going through something. They're trying to shield me from it. I deserve more transparency as a member of this family." When their identity and ego kind of step up, how do you handle slightly older kids?
Dr. Larry Waldman:
That does become problematic at times because remember, if you're talking about teens, what's their number one objective? Spending time with mom or dad? I don't think so. So often, you have the situation where they don't want to go to the other party on every other weekend because what that does is cut deeply into their social life. It's not that they don't want to spend time with dad necessarily, but their social life takes prominence. So, those are problems. Plus, of course, they speak their mind. Many times they're angry, They'll let you know.
Seth Nelson:
And on that, Pete, I think kids of that age, it's good for them to discuss their schedules. Not, "When are you going to see mom?" Like, "What's going on in your life? You're going to be with mom and dad 50% of the time. Let's figure out a schedule that works." That is not involving them in the litigation, so it's a fine line. And to maintain the flexibility, which should be on both ends. And always remembering that your job as a parent is to give your kids wings. And so when they have the social activity on your weekend, then you let them go. You don't keep them back to hang out with you where they're going to be resentful. Like, "Go, enjoy it."
Pete Wright:
Just because you've missed them so much on their off-time with your...
Seth Nelson:
That's right. Now, maybe you say, "Look, the party's starting at what time?"
"7:00."
"Is it okay with you on your schedule if..." And let's say it's a non-driving child, like 15. "Can we go out to dinner first and I promise to have you there by 7:30?" You can do those, but then you're talking about their lives, their schedule, and how this is all going to relate to them. What you don't talk about is, "Well, this is why mom and dad are getting a divorce," or, "This is what you want your schedule to be."
Dr. Larry Waldman:
That is really important. Glad you brought it up. And I used to run into that all of the time where there would be a party or an event of some kind that is on the other person's time. And now, we have a problem. Of course obviously, if we're thinking in terms of what's best for the kid, we let the kid attend this. But if you have parents who are fighting with each other, no. Then there's a fight over can that kid go to that party or go to that event or whatever? And clearly, that's the kind of stuff that really is upsetting.
Seth Nelson:
And here's another one, Pete, that I find just fascinating. Ten-week summer, mom gets five weeks, dad gets five weeks. The kid for years has gone to one week of sleepaway camp.
Pete Wright:
Who loses the week?
Seth Nelson:
That's how it gets framed. That's how it gets framed, right? And let's just add to it, it's the summer camp where the parents met as camp counselors in college. They both support it, right? They both support it. So, how are you going to deal with that? Inevitably, and this is just preparing your client when you go to court and say, "Yeah, Judge, I think it should be one week. One year comes out of mine, the next year it comes out of his." Or you just say, "Judge, I'll take the hit on that every week because it's so important to them."
And then, who's the one putting the child ahead of their own needs?
Pete Wright:
Right. If you're going to fight about anything, fight about who's the most gracious and generous in the process.
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
And that leads to that question of what happens? How does the court look at it when you bring your kids' agency as a reaction to your divorce into the courtroom? When you claim, "My former spouse is not being gracious enough." And now, the kids being dragged in as a motive to fight about. This is something we've talked about and around on the show in the past. How much baggage you are piling into that kid's future emotional suitcase by making them share responsibility in your divorce, and you don't even know you're doing it.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
As we're saying here, clearly, the parent who is more focused on what is in the best interests of the child is manifesting the best parenting. And it's not just a contest to see who's the best parent, it's all about what's best for the child.
Pete Wright:
Right. Over the course of your work, can you reflect a little bit on what it looks like? What an adult child of divorce looks like? Who was in youth, I'll say a victim of a high-conflict divorce, a contentious divorce. How do kids carry that on in their lives?
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Well, they do. It is tough to study because you're not dealing with mice where you can put them in different treatments. But the Wallerstein study back in the '70s or '80s studied a couple of hundred of divorced families and kids. And clearly, what showed is that kids from divorce are more likely to divorce themselves. If anything, they've been through it. And you know it's tough, but you can survive it.
So I don't know if it makes them more wary or not, but I really wish parents would be more careful about vetting their partners to begin with. But that's another... That's another-
Seth Nelson:
That is an entirely different podcast.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
It's progressive. Yeah, exactly.
Seth Nelson:
We're on the back end of the relationship, not the front.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
One other area that I'd like to bring up is when the kid returns from the other parent.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, that's when you get to ask them everything they did and quiz them.
Pete Wright:
Yes. Right. Sure.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Interrogation. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Big, bright light comes down. It's awesome.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Yeah, the interrogation. And maybe a little bit of spying as well. "So, what's this about that you watching TV on a bigger TV? You mean to say Dad has a big TV now?"
Pete Wright:
Oh, sure.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
"Oh. Well, then maybe his child support needs to be upgraded a bit." Not just what you're thinking. And so, "Oh, and what else? Oh, and dad's getting a new car?" And so on. So it puts the kids, again, in that loyalty squeeze that we talk about where the kid is like, "Who am I supposed to be loyal to here?"
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And the other part on that, Pete, is I advise clients like, "There's no secrets at mom's house. There's no secrets at dad's house. And the only secret is if we have a surprise gift for dad, and you can tell him that, too." Then you make a little game out of that. But other than that, there's no secrets. So if they want to ask you, you're not going to say...
And kids will say this, "Dad said I can't tell you this. Mom said I'm not allowed to share this with you."
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Yep. Right.
Seth Nelson:
And what happens is the kid is giving information which is more harmful than the actual information itself, right?
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Right. If I might, I'd like to share one, very quick story that sticks out. This was a contentious divorce, so that's almost repetitive. But one of the issues that in fact was brought to the court, dad brings the kid home late on Sunday. Too late. Way past the assigned time. The judge warned the father and so on. And he's like 11, 12 or so. Dad and the kid are out and they're having a good time and so forth, but now he's late. Once again, he's late. They're driving home and so forth, dad gets on the phone, dials it, hands the phone to the kid and says, "Tell mom we're going to be late."
Now, the kid's talking to me about this two days later in session. And he said, "I didn't know what to say." So mom answers and he says, "Mom, it's Scott. Dad says we're going to be late."
Now, Mom's upset and so forth. She's talking to the kid, but she now says, "Your father," and so on. And this poor kid, as he's telling me is absolutely crumbling, breaking down and saying, "I didn't know what to do, and who to say about..." And so on. Meanwhile, we expect that kid to come home and do his homework, and do an essay, and do all the other things that they're supposed to do.
Seth Nelson:
Right. From the unstructured parent that can't get them there in time.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's why judges in Florida got tired of Sunday night exchanges because of that exact scenario. That's why they turn them into overnights. Don't drop a kid off late, no dinner unstructured, get the homework done. Science project is due the next day. Doesn't make any sense.
But a good doctor wrote a whole book about this, right?
Pete Wright:
And this is exactly the transition I want to make because you just described a scenario where I feel like it may be a challenge to live up to the title of your book, Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex: What Every Divorced Parent Needs To Know.
I feel like that story has to be somewhere at the root of why you chose to write this book.
Dr. Larry Waldman:
Partly? Yeah, absolutely. I conducted over, close to 100 custody evaluations in my time, and I was also an assigned parenting coordinator. Where after the fact, I'd work with these couples and try to get them to cooperate, if you will, for the sake of the child. Ironically, many parents were telling me, "I can't wait to get divorced so I can be rid of him or her," and so on.
And I said, "No. No, no, no. It's not going to work that way. You're not getting rid of him or her. In fact, if anything, you're going to have probably more contact than you might've had before." It is something that we have to be aware of. And it's important that if you bring kids into the world and you decide to divorce, it's your responsibility to make that as easy as possible for them. And it's not an easy thing to do, but to be at least aware of many of the things that we've talked about here.
Pete Wright:
I wonder, Seth, when you think about a conversation like this with your clients, at what point are you reminding them quite literally, "You're demonstrating that your hate for your ex is the most important thing in your life right now"?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it's really well-put, Pete. The conversations we have regarding this is you never get that time back that you have with your kid. You're paying me to go to court and fight for more time, but so many parents waste the time that they have during the divorce process, and you're so angry at your former spouse. The way you deal with that is you invite them in to the time that you have with your kid by complaining about them, by mentioning them, by degrading them. And that all takes away from the time that you're asking me to fight for. So if you want more time with your kid that's quality time, don't mention your other spouse unless it's positive. Put down your cellphone.
Because when you go to that performance or to that athletic event or that extracurricular, it is inevitable that your child will look at you the only time that you're looking at your phone.
Pete Wright:
Of course.
Seth Nelson:
And you've just sunk that because you earned karma more than anything else. Turn it off. But that's the conversation I have is, "Don't invite them in."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And that's the key lessons out of this book. I mean, some of the things that really stick out, right? This whole idea, this reminder is a blunt reminder. It's like, look, you put your child first every time. Your divorce is yours, it's between you. Parenting will always be first and foremost about the child, not about you and your relationship with your ex. And as you already said, divorce doesn't end your parenting, right? It doesn't end your work together as a couple. That reminder, it's never too late to learn these lessons, to be reminded of our own weaknesses. So, well done.
Thank you, Larry, for hanging out with us today. We sure appreciate your time and your wisdom, and encourage everybody to go check out this book. It is timeless as it is timely. Please check it out. Love your kids more than you hate your ex. We sure appreciate you, Larry. Thank you.
And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and attention. Don't forget, you can head over to howtosplitatoaster.com and push the button that says, "Hey, I got a question for Seth." Send it in. It'll be on our list for our next listener questions episode. On behalf of Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, and Dr. Larry Waldman, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll see you next week right back here on How To Split A Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
How To Split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T. Bless & the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How To Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction.
Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
