Coming to Terms with the Male/Female Dynamics in Relationships with Dr. Ricky Arenson
Women are superior to men.
Today on the show we're talking about gender. We hear a lot of he-said/she-said in the divorce process. But what's really going on between the men and women in relationships that are breaking apart? What kinds of relationship troubles could we avoid if we took a little time to embrace our differences as men and women and learn more about one another? Dr. Ricky Arenson is a leading Australian endocrinologist, husband, and stand-up comic, as well as the author of "Women Are Superior to Men: The REAL Secret to a Fantastic Marriage, Joyful Parenting & Better Sex!" and he joins us today to talk about the important truth couples are missing in their relationships.
Links & Notes
Dr. Ricky Arenson on the web, LinkedIn, and Facebook
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
-
Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, we acknowledge you and your toaster are not the same.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today on the show we're talking about gender. We hear a lot of he said, she said in the divorce process, but what's really going on between the men and women in relationships that are breaking apart? And what kind of relationship troubles could we avoid if we took a little time to embrace our differences as men and women and learn more about one another? Dr. Ricky Arenson is a leading Australian endocrinologist, husband and standup comic, as well as the author of Women Are Superior to Men: The REAL Secret to a Fantastic Marriage, Joyful Parenting & Better Sex! He joins us today to talk about the important truth couples are missing in their relationships. Dr. Ricky, welcome to the Toaster.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Pete Wright:
Oh, Ricky, so one of the things, just to set a little foundation, you say we're facing a marriage crisis in the West. Why and what can my endocrinologist do about it?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
I think there's two aspects to that, really. One is that we're facing very high rates of divorce. And I think the other is that there is just so much negativity about marriage, about men and women, about gender, and all of those things concern me. But in addition to that, there's this a culture that has developed and it's a very powerful culture of instant gratification, of scrolling past things that are inconvenient, of not listening to other people's opinions. And all of those things are very counterproductive in marriage because marriage is really about hard work. It's about graft, it's about listening to each other and hearing the opinions of your partner and accepting them. So I think we're living in times where people don't tolerate differences of opinion and there's just so much negativity. But really, I mean, I love being married and I think women are amazing and I think men are actually quite nice most of the time as well. So you ask what can an endocrinologist do about that?
Seth Nelson:
That's my favorite question of the show. I mean, if you can answer this one, we might be done.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah, that's a hard one. I mean, many of my friends, when they hear I'm an endocrinologist, they say, well, I'm a cyclist. Can you give me growth hormone or testosterone? So I can't give that kind of help as an endocrinologist unfortunately. But I guess one of the things that I do bring is I've managed a lot of couples in distress. And often when couples come and see me, they think there's a hormonal problem. And what turns out in the end is that it's a relationship problem. And sometimes it is a hormonal problem and that impacts significantly on their relationship and sexuality.
So I guess as an endocrinologist, I get drawn into trying to deal with these issues, work them out, and really, I don't know if it's a bad expression to say get in bed with my patients because I don't mean it in a crude way, but really to try and help them navigate what they need to do to get better and be happy together. And some of that is medical and some of that is finding other answers for them and helping them find a pathway that gets them back on track.
Pete Wright:
You see what happened there, Seth? I opened with a joke and he gave us a serious and sober answer-
Seth Nelson:
I know, I know.
Pete Wright:
And actually taught us something.
Seth Nelson:
He did.
Pete Wright:
That was welcome to the show, Ricky. I'm glad you're here.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
I apologize. Science is so unfashionable. But then again, so is humor. So one-on-one battle [inaudible 00:03:43].
Seth Nelson:
Well, it's okay because I actually have an endocrinologist joke.
Pete Wright:
Oh, good. Probably a better one.
Seth Nelson:
Can you believe this? So this is totally inappropriate. So not like anyone should be listening to this show with their kids, but if your kids are in the car, definitely have them put on the earmuffs. So my son was on growth hormones for a long time because he was a idiopathic short stature. They didn't know why he wasn't growing. And I called my uncle, the physician, and I said, "I'm really worried about these growth hormones. They're not working." He's like, "What do you mean they're not working?" I said, "Every night I inject some in my penis and it's not getting larger."
Pete Wright:
Jesus.
Seth Nelson:
So Pete, you didn't-
Pete Wright:
A blooming onion of inappropriate right there. That's amazing.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. But this actually leads to a question that I have for Dr. Ricky. Men sometimes come at things from a different perspective. We might all laugh at that and say it's inappropriate. Some people might find it very rude and not. So how do the male female dynamic really plays out in communication when maybe you're just joking, but it's kind of what people would say locker room humor or guy's humor or something like that nature. But how can that get into a relationship and kind of really screw things up?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Wow, that's a pretty tough and broad question. Look, I think one of the difficulties we face in the modern world with political correctness is a denial of what we are and what we're supposed to be. As unfashionable as this may be, we are actually mammals, we're animals, just more sophisticated ones. And putting religious arguments about souls aside, ultimately, men are actually fundamentally designed to chase women and try and get them into bed. That's what we're designed to do to keep human beings alive. That means we have sex on our brains a lot. And that's no different to many other mammals. You see the men locking horns, the males locking horns trying to get to mate with a female who's standing on the side looking rather uninterested or at least pretending to be uninterested if she's a human. So men have sex on the brain a lot, and that leads to us making lots of jokes that are sexual in nature and sometimes looking at women's body parts as unfashionable as that may be as well.
That's what we're designed to do. And I guess that's one of the challenges of the modern day is that we have so much propaganda and politicization of the space. And of course anything that we're talking about has to include respect and consent and appropriate behavior and not making women feel harassed or uncomfortable. But at the end of the day, women love looking good. And the reason why most of them love looking good really is because they want to attract men. So we have this very difficult construct that when men are attracted, suddenly we've now placed all these barriers and say that's bad and men are being inappropriate. But it's actually what we're supposed to do and what we're designed to do. So I guess the difficulty for most women when they get married to men if they do condescend to marry us, but there's lots of things about men that are different to women.
One is we don't seem to have that genetic setting in our brain that tells us when jokes get old. And I think you'll find in many houses, they talk about dad jokes and the kids all groan when their dads make jokes. And we make the same jokes over and over again. The wives get tired of it, but it just seems to be the way we're wired. And that sort of different brain construction also leads to men sitting on couches, staring at a screen with the ball bouncing around, shouting expletives while drinking a beer. And their brains aren't thinking about anything else. Whereas women's brains, even in terms of the science and the biology and the medical evidence are actually quite busy. They've got lots going on, lots shooting between the hemispheres.
Men are very, very unifocused in the way that they think. So all of these things lead to misunderstanding, often they lead to couples fighting. And I think that's one of the things that the spaces that I really want to go into is to teach people why men are and women are different. Because if we really want to talk about tolerance of diversity, tolerance of diversity is all about husbands and wives tolerating each other despite and because of their differences and growing because of them.
Pete Wright:
That's so interesting to come at that perspective when we're doing so much work, and I say we at large that we are doing so much work as a western culture to remove gender from the conversation in the spirit of equality. And this seems to point to the fact that there are just some things that you have to assess as gender based, that until you understand the differences, the fundamental differences in gender, you're not going to understand the fundamental differences in conflict. Is that a fair assessment?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Well, I mean, that's a massive, massive topic. It's something very close to my heart because I think one of the problems is that there are so many mixed philosophies and arguments where people create propaganda by mixing too many ideas together at once. So for example, yes, there are very typical gender differences between men and women, and those gender differences are often proven in science. There's direct scientific evidence of how male and female brains work differently, but that doesn't in any way prejudice someone who's different. So you're going to get men who are gay, men who are transgender, men who are... There's a great diversity out there amongst humans, and there'll be people who are different. So understanding the typical most common things that most married couples face doesn't in any way prejudice against tolerating people who are different. So I think those arguments can't be put together.
We can't say that to tolerate diversity means killing off diversity because men and women on average are different. And when you look at most married couples, not everyone is the same, but you will find typical arguments and fights that occur universally, whichever part of the world you go to. So for example, on average, men do have higher libidos than women. And men spend a lot of time in many married homes, not all, following their wives around begging for sex. That's the reality of life. Everyone knows that. I mean, every high school movie we've ever seen has been about boys in the locker room talking about girls and their bodies and chasing them around. And it's a little sad that that's become so politicized because that's what men are designed to be and what we do.
So for most marriages, if women believe that that's somehow sexual harassment or it's something terrible about men, marriage is going to be difficult for a lot of women out there. And yet, most women actually enjoy being adored by their husbands. And part of that adoration comes with a lovely package of being pursued and desired. And for many people, that's wonderful. That's why the world spends billions of dollars on fashion and makeup and appearance. If people didn't care to be sexually attractive, they wouldn't be doing that.
Seth Nelson:
You're framing this as there's an argument. A guy's wanting to have sex with his wife, maybe she doesn't want to have sex as often. But when you first start dating and there's this kind of courtship or you're pursuing or whatever you want to call it, how do you keep that fire? Or what do you tell couples if they are at that different level of how often they want to have sex or how do they approach sex? So I understand the argument, what resolutions do we have for them?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
And let me just also frame this by saying that I didn't get to all the things that women complain about because lots of men complain they don't get enough sex, but women have plenty of arguments about their husbands besides just being sexually demanding. So I just want to make sure I qualify that. So firstly, it's very important to say that I'm not in any way saying that women should be giving in to have sex when they don't want to have sex or consenting something they don't want to do. But in answer to resolution to your question, the first thing I would say is I have this very important rule in all of my writing, which is called be the manager. And what I mean by that is that in a relationship, both partners have to take absolute ownership of any problem that exists in the couple.
There is no such thing as my problem or your problem. Any problem that either partner has is going to affect the relationship and affect both. So there's no such thing as blame or my problem. So when it comes to sexuality, men do have sexual needs and many women have them as well. Most women have sexual needs and have a libido. But if there is a mismatch between libido and sexual needs, then really that comes down to communication, about caring about each other. And fundamentally, the most important constructive force in a relationship is the desire of both partners to please each other. So if you have that in a relationship that both partners are equally committed to caring for the other and taking care of their needs, then these kinds of issues become much easier because the husband is going to be really sensitive about not pressuring his wife into sex at times when she really is not feeling up to it or upset about something or something's going on, and the wife is going to also be concerned that her husband be happy in the marriage.
So that would be the start of solving these problems is that fundamental. And secondly, it's all about communication, about people talking about what they want and need in a mature way without being demanding or petulant or unpleasant. But fundamentally, it's also about love. If people love each other, they want to take care of each other. And that means the husband's going to sometimes be washing dishes at 10 at night, and it might sometimes be that the wife's going to be, even if she's not 100% in the mood, going, hey, my husband's a bit unhappy, I'm going to take care of him because I love him and I want him to be happy and I can see he's down. It's all about compromise and communication.
Pete Wright:
I think it's funny too, I've been married now 23 going on 24 years, and my wife and I often-
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
And yet you look so young.
Pete Wright:
Well, thank you. You're very kind. Enough about me.
Seth Nelson:
He's just sucking up now.
Pete Wright:
So the thing that my wife and I joke about sometimes is how our relationship, once we got married, it became totally okay to objectify one another in a way that was just not okay ever before, but it feels much more honest. Even as the man in the relationship, I love knowing that she has sexual needs. I love knowing that she sometimes pursues me and in very much sort of the same dynamic, that equality sort of comes through. I'm curious what your women audience says to your perspective. Do you get feedback from women on how this model works?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
I guess one of the most fascinating studies I get on that is in men with low testosterone. So there are a lot of studies about female libido and what they basically show is that over the age of 35, depending on which study you look at, about 35 to 50% of women complain of low libido, also considering the fact that 50 to 65% don't. So it's a very common problem. And where that becomes very interesting for me is I treat men with low testosterone and they have low libidos and they're not interested in sex because they've got a hormonal issue.
And about half of the women, the wives bring them in and they say, well, I'm actually quite happy with the situation. He doesn't demand sex all the time, and I'm happy with that. He's [inaudible 00:15:18] and he listens to me and he stays where I put him in the corner. And about half of the women say to me, I really miss sex. Can you do something with this guy? Sort him out for me. So it is interesting to observe that dynamic and it's about 50/50 from what I see in my practice.
Pete Wright:
Well, we had an expert on the show not too long ago talking about the conflict that happens in the marriage during the menopausal transition for women and how that can lead to just misunderstanding and conflict and particularly around libido, misaligned libido. And I know that's one of the things you talk about since we've already sort of broken the ice on that. How do you foster a long-lasting sexual relationship through the peaks and valleys of libidinal change?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Again, I think that comes down to both partners being very sensitive to the needs of the other. And I mean, there are many, many aspects to that. I think the most fundamental and most important is friendship and personal closeness because when two people are friends, they feel more comfortable together, they feel more comfortable talking about sex, and it becomes something which they can deal with because they're so comfortable with each other. A huge aspect we all know about sex is that it is very much built on the quality of the relationship. So if two people get along incredibly well and their relationship is very strong, mostly a good sex life will follow. And if it doesn't, there's at least an aspiration for it and I think that's already a big start. So if two people love each other and even if the sex isn't great, they have a great desire for the sex to be great. And that in of itself is a great start because there's lots of things they can do with that.
They can find ways to make it work, they can talk about ways to make it work. So I think when things go wrong is when the relationship breaks down. So you always start with the relationship and try and fix that first, and mostly the sex will follow. If it doesn't, then you've got two people who are usually motivated to make every aspect of the relationship work, and then they can work on that together. But if you're talking about simple, basic, direct tips on making sexuality better, I think there are a few. I think one is that too many couples get busy in the wrong way. Not getting busy, but busy with their lives and they're taking kids everywhere and they're exhausted. And if you don't put aside protected time for sex, it's not going to happen. And I can tell you, and I know this is an amazing statement, you guys are going to be like, this guy's a genius, but if you don't ever have sex, you're not going to have good sex. I know, wow. But that's actually true.
Seth Nelson:
I just mentioned that to my fiance the other day. I said, I want to keep improving and I think we just need to practice. And you don't need the practice, I need the practice. So absolutely. Yeah. And now I get to say Dr. Ricky said so.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
You can't be great in bed if you're not in bed.
Pete Wright:
Dr. Ricky said.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah. So I mean, I think it sounds insignificant, but actually engaging is very important. And an expression I use for this is that outcome is proportional to investment. If you don't put in the effort, you're not going to get the outcome. And just by putting aside intimate time, enjoying your sexuality together, you start to enjoy it more. At the very least, you enjoy the pleasure of your partner. There's so much to be gained from engaging in the act. And so the first step's really to re-engage and to put aside protected time, be that via a routine.
So some people actually need a routine. They're busy and they just say, hey, Monday night and Thursday night are the big nights, or however you do it. I think spontaneous sex is fantastic, it's living the dream. But if that's not possible, you've got to keep it as part of your schedule. I think a second really important aspect of sexuality is to keep talking about it because your brain is your biggest sexual organ. And if it's not on your mind, it's not going to be in your body either. So if your mind's not stimulated when it comes to sex, you're not thinking about it, it's very easy for it to disappear for a while.
Pete Wright:
Seth, according to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, about 10% of children live with a parent with an alcohol use disorder.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, we talk about it almost every week and every week, it's still alarming to me. I deal with it every day in court with my clients trying to counsel them and come up with solutions. And I always say, the worst thing you want to go to court and do is try to prove your case and just say he said she said, that's why there's Soberlink. Tell them how it works, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Soberlink is a device that allows you to detect and transmit your blood alcohol level when you need to detect and transmit it. When you're picking up carpool, when you're doing the handoff of the kids, anytime you're driving your kids around and you need to communicate that you are a safe driver and there has been even an allegation of unsafe alcohol behavior, you need Soberlink. It's a little device, you blow into it, it's like a breathalyzer, but it's even more than that. It's got facial recognition, it's tied to you. It knows you are the person who's blowing into it at any given moment. And one model that connects to your phone sends it straight up to the people who need to know right when you're driving, another model is cellular in the US, you don't even need a phone. It just sends the information directly to your spouse, your attorney, whoever you deem is appropriate to receive that information completely private to those people. It's not shared on social media, but it does allow you to collect the data when you need the data collected. That's important, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely, because courts love it. They love it because it's real time independent third party verification on what's happening. The judge isn't there. The judge isn't in car line, they're not watching. They don't know. This is a way that they know. And you might not feel like you have to prove your sobriety, but this will help you immensely and save you a lot of money on attorney's fees and costs. So if you're being accused, use Soberlink. That way you can show the court and yourself and your spouse, I'm focused on the kids, I'm not drinking. And if you have an issue, this is a way to also self monitor yourself. So we really appreciate Soberlink being our sponsor of this show. You can receive up to $50 off of your device. Just go visit soberlink.com/toaster.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
So I'm going to just quickly break a funny story from my practice about sex and weird sex stories. But I actually saw a German guy of about 80 and he came to see me and he had very, very, very low testosterone levels. And when I examined him and discovered that he had testicles the size of sesame seeds, quite literally, I asked him when last he had had sex with his wife, and he told me 50 years ago, which I thought was a bad outcome, disappointing.
Pete Wright:
50 years.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah. And so I said, wow, that's extraordinary. Did you never seek help though? So I told him and his wife about testosterone treatment and they decided they would go on it. His wife wasn't actually that keen, but he kept saying, "Will I hit the golf ball further?" I said, "Yes, you will." He said, "I want it now." So I put him on testosterone and he and his wife were very excited. He goes away and he comes back and he was looking very unhappy. So I knew it had to be his golf game. So I said to him, what's gone wrong with your golf game? So he tells me he's hitting the ball much further, but every time he gets on the green, he gets an erection and he can't putt. And then he told me that he was very excited about his wife and finding her attractive again, but something wasn't working. So I actually told him to take his wife to the golf course late at night. No, I didn't. I adjusted his testosterone and then-
Seth Nelson:
I've got to interrupt Dr. Ricky.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. We're going to cut the story there for sure.
Seth Nelson:
I am now going to change where I'm getting married. Okay? You know it's going to be on the 18th green at the masters. I am convinced now.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Hopefully not during the masters themselves because that could get you arrested.
Pete Wright:
But whatever it takes Steph, whatever it takes. You do you.
Seth Nelson:
But I work well under pressure.
Pete Wright:
So what did he do?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Well, I adjusted his testosterone and unfortunately it excited him a bit too much. So when he came back for his follow-up, he and his wife wanted to sort of put aside an hour to tell me about all their bedroom exploits, which it's wonderful when you can stimulate 80-year olds in that way, but it doesn't mean you necessarily as a doctor want to hear about the details. So I discharged him, I said, "I don't need to see you again. Please don't come back."
Pete Wright:
You've just given me such an aspirational story. Just give me another 30 years and I want to shock my doctor that way. I can't wait to be an old oversexed man.
Seth Nelson:
But if you really take this story at its core, it took them going to a doctor to talk about it. This doesn't happen without communication. And I'm just fascinated that there was no, from the way you tell the story, there might have been, but almost no communication for 50 years on this topic. And it had to have crossed somebody's mind in that time. So is that a lesson to be learned where when you wake up one day and it's been three weeks, a month, whatever the case may be, a year or two years, at what point do you say, I need to talk to my spouse about this? Something isn't right here.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah, that's a fantastic point. And in fact, in his story, what was fascinating is he was so upset that he only met me at age 80. He kept jumping up and down and shouting that he'd wished he'd met me 50 years ago. Of course I wasn't born yet, so it wouldn't have been very helpful. But it struck me that he'd just not sought medical help. And he was a little bit cross about it, but I kind of wondered whether he wanted doctors to be standing on the street corners with placards saying, do you have erectile dysfunction? Call this number now. Some people do do that, but for other reasons. So you're absolutely right.
So I think in a relationship, that's a very important point. It is very easy for particularly men to go into their shells about sexual dysfunction and low libido. And it's something that many men find embarrassing and difficult to talk about, and it's a topic which many couples just don't engage well on. But if you don't talk about it, if you don't seek help, then that's a very sad thing for many relationships. And it is destructive, it causes many breakups and many divorces when the sex goes wrong. It is an important aspect of relationships. And the whole thing about the medical approach is really about getting to a diagnosis. It may be exhaustion, it may be the relationship, it may be a hormonal issue, but it's something that needs to be looked at and helped because otherwise it erodes love.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, I've heard this more than once. There are clients in my room, they'll say, we haven't had sex for years. And one of my questions is, well, do you want to work on your relationship before you get a divorce and have you spoken about this? Usually the answer to the second question, have you spoken about it, would be no. And I'm like, well, this is just a breakdown of communication and if you're not talking about this, what else aren't you talking about? So it takes two people to get married, only one to get divorced. If you want out, you're going to get out. But I always ask those questions, especially when I have someone who doesn't want the divorce. It's more than I'll do anything to make this work, it's where's the breakdown? What can we talk about? Can we just have a conversation about what went wrong?
Even if it's a postmortem, even if you're kind of doing it, be like, hey, maybe we can fix these things. And the other one might be like, I don't want to have a postmortem, I'm already at acceptance in the griefing stage. I don't need to go through this. I'm ready to move on. I'm so angry. I'm this, I'm that. I'm the other. But then I see these same clients, they get divorced two years later. There was someone and they'd be like, oh my god, Seth, why didn't you tell me there was so much great sex out here? I'm like, because I'm your lawyer, that's not my job.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
Right? Go talk to Dr. Ricky.
Pete Wright:
Here's the thing. This might be a little bit off target, but I'm hearing this and I'm fascinated by the fact that we have this sort of physiological barometer of relationship health, the fact that somebody comes to you with extremely low testosterone and that is something you might look at as an indicator of relationship performance, not just sexual performance. Are there other physiological signs that a relationship is falling apart? Stress-related, cardiovascular, what else might you look for in your physical diagnosis that your relationship's in trouble?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Look, unfortunately, I don't think there is anything that easy, although it is interesting that we discovered a few years ago that people could die of a broken heart or at least have a heart attack from a broken heart. So there's something called takotsubo cardiomyopathy where people go through extreme stress or grief and actually have a heart attack as a consequence of that, not of actually having blocked coronary arteries, heart arteries. But other than that, no. I mean, it's really fascinating that the longest running human study of human happiness, the Harvard Study of Adult Development actually demonstrates that the key to longevity and health and happiness is long-term close relationships. So people who manage to get married and survive for many years together and have a happy marriage or long-term happy relationships and community live longer and are happier. So there is certainly significant health effects from having a healthy relationship.
I mean, there's all these studies that show that having a dog or a cat makes people healthier and live longer. But definitely even having a husband seems to make people healthier and live longer. Although ironically, that's actually not true because statistically, this is just a joke, but a statistical truth that women who stay single live longer than women who get married and men who stay single live shorter than men who get married. So the argument would be that men wear their wives out so the wives live shorter and the men live longer in marriage, but it's actually not true.
I think the reason for that statistic is actually that for many, many years, falling pregnant and having babies is actually quite a significant medical risk. And so women who get married, you will get a certain death rate from that. But going away from the jokes, there's no question that there are an enormous number of health benefits that stem from a happy, healthy relationship. And there are certain measures you could use in physiology for that, but it's not anything straightforward, unfortunately. So no, I can't just look at you and say, hey, he's happily married, she's not.
Pete Wright:
I was looking for that and I'm really sad.
Seth Nelson:
On that statistic where men live longer if they're married and women die earlier if they're married, it just seems like men should just marry men if they want to live a long life and we're done with that topic. It just kind of makes it easy. That's that deductive reasoning that I'm using, Pete. That's why I'm so good in the courtroom.
Pete Wright:
That's right. That's the love ring. Right. I want to talk about the book, Women Are Superior to Men: The REAL Secret to a Fantastic Marriage, Joyful Parenting & Better Sex! What business do you have writing a book about marriage, doctor?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Wow. Okay, that's a fantastic question. I'm going to give you a bit of a long answer to that one. In my medical career, I've probably seen about 30,000 plus patients. I was thinking about this the other day. So I've had a lot of time to study human beings in relationships. And that's really what any good professional does, whether it's a lawyer or a doctor or teacher. You really are studying humans, aren't you? I mean, you're dealing with humans. But in my career trajectory, I guess one of the things that really surprised me is that I climbed quite rapidly through the ranks as a doctor, and I kept getting these promotions and getting pushed higher and higher to heads of department roles and director roles and leadership roles. And through all of that, one of the things I recognized about doctors is that many of them are actually really bad at managing relationships and people.
So they might be great doctors, but they don't know how to talk to families who are in crisis. They don't know how to talk to their patients. They don't know how to take care of people. They don't know how to take... Many know how to take care of diseases, but not people. So I started to study this as a pet topic of mine, and that eventually led to me being sponsored in my hospital by the hospital management to actually write courses to teach doctors, how do you manage people? How do you understand relationships? How do you manage conflict? How do you manage the side of medicine that isn't about disease, but about people? And so I wrote all these courses and I was teaching doctors and it was very popular. And one day my wife, who's also a doctor, said, "I need some professional development points. I'm going to take some leave and come to your course." And she actually said to me straight, she said, "It's going to be boring and I'm going to learn nothing." It's nothing like wives for building the husband's confidence.
Seth Nelson:
At least she didn't follow up with, just like our sex life.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Wow. Well, if she did, I'm not going to tell you that, but I hope so as well. So yeah, so she came along to the course and there were about 50 specialists there, and she walked out and she said, "Wow, I absolutely loved it. I learned so much." I mean, she'd been married to me for like 20 years and she's like, "Who ever thought that you were intelligent after all these years? You never showed any signs of this at home." And I said, "Well, I never thought you found me funny or interesting." And she said, "I don't, but the course was great." But she actually said to me, "You have to write a book because people are fascinated by what you have to say about relationships and people." And I'd never thought about that. I didn't know I had anything to add to humanity.
So I started writing extensively about relationship management, not just about marriage, but my second book about parenting is actually currently being edited. So this is sort of my area of great excitement and interest. Then what really inspired this particular book and what took me in this direction was I was sitting on a ward late at night, it was about seven or eight at night, and there were a group of nurses around me and they were all getting in a huff. They were all on the phone to their husbands and one said, "Why do I have to ring my husband during my dinner break and tell him to feed the children? Doesn't he know that children have to be fed every night?" And the nurse sitting next to him was, "Yeah, I was just on the phone to my husband. I had to tell him to bath the kids." And the other nurse goes, "Having a husband's exhausting. It's like having an extra child." And I turned to them and I said, "No, you just all expect too much. Women are superior to men."
And they got really, really excited. And they said to me, "Wow, I can't believe we heard that from a man. You should write a book." And I went, "Well, I kind of am. But that's a really good focus." And I guess just to add to that, the other thing that always fascinated me when I got married was we used to meet up with our friends, and all of them were complaining about the same things. The wives were complaining about the same issues about the husbands. The husbands were complaining about the same issues about their wives. So I always found that really interesting that we all think we're so different, and yet most of us are pretty much the same. So that's what inspired me to write the book.
Seth Nelson:
That's a really interesting arc in your career. And I mimic it, or I can see it a little bit in what I do because I was having this conversation with a friend of mine and they said, "Well, what have you learned after 20 years of law practice?" Right? I came to law, later I worked for six years, then I went to law school. So it was kind of a second career. And I said, "Look, I have marginally improved on the law." There's a statute, there's case law, you go make an argument, you're in court, you know the objections, you know how to get things into evidence. But that's the attorney part. But then there's the counselor at law, which practicing nothing but divorce work for 15 years, it is a study in human behavior. It is explaining how to look at things from a different angle and how to solve problems and understand where people are and where they want to go, even though they might not know how to get there.
I think when you're going through a divorce or even post divorce or thinking about a divorce in a marriage and not really knowing where you are, part of that is talking to a counselor about what you need to be doing to take care of yourself and to decide whether you want to keep walking there with the person that you married or whether you want to go a separate way. But having that self-reflection and realizing that there're people out there that have been where you are, we're not as unique as we think we are. There's a lot of support groups out there. But to understand this is just human behavior and the way you can get through some of that is talking it out, whether it's with a counselor, with yourself, with an attorney that's helping you through the process because you go through two divorces, legal divorce, emotional divorce, there's all this stuff. But that arc that you took that lead to writing a book led to Pete's question, well, how are you qualified, is really a fascinating journey.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
I think it's a profound statement from you in all its aspects because really I think no matter what we do, whatever career, emotional quotient, EQ, emotional intelligence is such a big part of people being good at their jobs and successful. In most jobs, it's about understanding other people where they come from, and getting married, having... I've been married for over 20 years like some of you have, having kids, working in a career, becoming more successful, I think all of those things teach so many life lessons. And I think one of the profound things about life is that most of us think that we could go back, we wish we could go back 20 years and teach ourselves some of the lessons we've learned the hard way about managing people. And that's really what comes with experience.
And perhaps what this modern world has lost respect for is that experience is actually very valuable and it teaches us how to manage, how to understand better. And there's so many ways that we would go back if we were 20 years old again and do things in a much more mature and better way so there would be much less emotional damage to ourselves and those around us. So I think what you've just said is so profound and so important that that's what we're kind of here for now. Neither of us is going to win Wimbledon, unfortunately.
Seth Nelson:
Just crushed my dreams.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Seth Nelson:
Wow. There was no even lead in. Like Seth, you haven't been practicing much.
Pete Wright:
I know, there was no call for that. That was hard.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
Yeah. I mean, you could win the veterans Wimbledon, but not the main draw I don't think. Not until Djokovic retires at least. But that's what we're here for now is we're not going to win the big sporting events anymore, but we can pass on this valuable experience to our children, to our grandchildren one day to other humans. You can pass it on to other lawyers. You reach a point where hopefully that's called wisdom where you actually have something to teach other people about other human beings.
Pete Wright:
Well, I have to tell you, I sure appreciate you being here and sharing some of this wisdom with us and with our audience. And where do you want people... We'll put the link to buy the book in the show notes. Where else can people go to learn about your work, either as a physician, as an author, or as a comedian?
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
So at the moment, I've got a website, drrickyarenson.com, and my book's available on Amazon. But I hope, to be honest, my career outside medicine is quite fledgling. So I've just started with where I'm going. I'm currently developing a podcast series called called Happy Healthy Ever After, which is controversially about putting joy and happiness and positivity back into heterosexual marriage. And so I think I've just started this journey. The book was kind of the first step, but I must say it's been an absolute privilege and pleasure chatting to all of you. I kind of feel sad that we don't do this more often. You're such a great bunch of guys. It's so enjoyable.
Pete Wright:
Oh, that's very kind. That's very kind.
Seth Nelson:
Well, we can hang up and do it again.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right. I mean, I know it's late there, but you've got to drink. We do try not to give Seth too many compliments, so we appreciate it, but let's tone it down a little bit. He lets it go to his head. I have to ring a bell, it's always a thing. Anyway, you're great. Ricky, thank you so much for being here. We'll let you get on with your day, but we sure appreciate your patience with us teaching us and illuminating some of these issues. Dr. Ricky Arenson.
Dr. Ricky Arenson:
It's been such a pleasure and privilege, genuinely. Thanks so much.
Pete Wright:
And we have a couple of listener questions. We're going to get to those right now. Seth, we've got a couple of listener questions. Are you ready?
Seth Nelson:
Ready. Fire away. Let's do it.
Pete Wright:
All right, here we go. Brianna writes, you talked to the gentleman a few weeks ago about black divorce, but I didn't recall you mentioning mixed race divorce. I'm black, my ex is white. I'm wondering if you have any advice on risks I might have or expectations. I'm in Lauderdale Lakes or I'd call your office presently. Thanks. Is there anything different about anything? I'm not sure kind of how to characterize it. That's the whole question.
Seth Nelson:
That's perfect. It's a great question.
Pete Wright:
Okay. You got it. All right.
Seth Nelson:
So we haven't talked about mixed marriages and mixed divorces. From a legal perspective, they're the same. I will be the first to tell you that I think our judges work really hard and there's a blindfold over the scales of justice that they just take people as they are. But I think being in the courtroom has some unconscious bias. So I am always aware of that. I'm always focused on that, on who my judge is. And you also must understand, you don't necessarily know what your judge may or may not have as an unconscious bias. There's a judge on family court right now, he's a white male sitting on the bench married to an African American wife. There's an African American judge. She is on the bench married to a white Caucasian guy. So don't just assume a little knowledge goes a long ways.
But I think the listener will know better than I about how it is in a mixed marriage, how the societal pressures might be different, how people look at you when you walk into a restaurant or when you go over to their house, your spouse's house, or when you're first dating and the different just backgrounds that you come from. Not unlike if you're a Jewish guy walking in dating someone who's Catholic. The difference obviously is someone might not know that you're Jewish because you can't tell that right when you walk in a room as opposed to the color of your skin.
Pete Wright:
Do you want to comment at all on jurisdictional differences depending on where you are? I guess you know your community, you know where you're getting a divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, absolutely. But let's just take a stereotypical small town. I even have things in Florida where I know in one county a judge will say, this experiment on 50/50 timesharing, I'm not really sold on that.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Right? And they just say it. And we have other judges that say, I will not approve this parenting plan that's 50/50 unless you waive the right to come back to court and argue about it without getting over some legal hurdles that you normally would have to. And I'm just waiting for one brave lawyer to take that up to the appellate court, but nobody wants to do it because they don't want to piss the judge off that they're in front of on 15, 20 other cases.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So yeah, no, it's a problem.
Pete Wright:
Aiden has a question for us. Hey guys, I've never heard a divorce show take on imposter syndrome and I had to write and say thanks. These types of questions don't seem to come up in a lot of podcasts on the subject of divorce, but deeply impacts me. So it was cool to hear your take on it with Lauren Abrams. What I felt like I could use more of is Seth's take. First, I have to go to court in a few weeks. We've been waiting for 13 months, and I think the delays have really impacted my confidence and sense of empowerment. Do you have any strategies you give your clients on helping them feel stronger in court? And second, what do you say to a lawyer who doesn't seem to have time for conversations like this? You guys are great. Thanks for all. Thank you, Aiden. Seth, what do you think?
Seth Nelson:
First off, most divorces in our office in Hillsborough County, Florida, and throughout the state I think take between six and 18 months. You're at 13 months. You're right in there. You lived it every single day. Every day you've lived it for the 13 months. Your lawyer has been living his life or her life and working, and he hasn't necessarily worked on your case straight for 13 months. Some days he's worked on other cases or some weeks or he's waiting for documents. That can really beat people down and they feel like they have no agency in this process. So what can you do? And Pete, we had a whole show on this a long time ago I think about depositions and how you handle depositions and answer questions. So the first thing is, I would say get with your lawyer if they're saying they don't have time to talk to you and say, I have a trial coming up. I feel like I need to be prepared. I'm going to be on the stand. What do I need to do on the stand? How do I answer questions?
Here's my rule of thumb, but check with your lawyer. Listen to the question. Take your time when you listen, make sure you understand it. If you do understand the question, then you answer it honestly in the least number of words as possible, and then you stop talking. It is a mistake to think that you can just get up there and tell your whole story and that the judge is going to agree with you. And if you're asked a yes no question, answer it directly, yes, no. If you've talked to your lawyer and your lawyer or the next question is, well, can you explain that answer? Then you can explain it. But judges hate it when you're asked a yes no question and you give a long story and then you get to the yes or the no at the end because they think you're avoiding answering the question.
And they have a lot of cases. They've listened to a lot of witnesses saying that and having some emotion when it's appropriate. It's what's your name? You don't start crying. That's what they're looking for. And to be yourself and to be real. And if you have a kid and being a parent, it's not always perfect. If you're the perfect parent and you never have trouble, the judge isn't going to believe you. So I think being authentic while answering those questions.
Pete Wright:
Great answer, Seth. Thank you. And thank you Aiden and Brianna for writing, and we sure appreciate it. And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and attention. Don't forget, if you want to get your question answered, just visit howtosplitatoaster.com and click submit your divorce question. We'll feed it to Seth and see what comes out. On behalf of Dr. Ricky Arenson and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright and we'll catch you next week right here on How to Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How To Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
