Breaking Patterns, Building Bonds: Dr. Etel Leit on Mastering Post-Divorce Communication
Communicating with a New Partner After Divorce
In this episode of How to Split a Toaster, Seth and Pete explore how to effectively communicate with new partners after divorce. They're joined by Dr. Etel Leit, a human communication researcher, prominent figure in psychology and education, and founder of Sign Shine, a family center in Beverly Hills. The conversation focuses on breaking old patterns and learning to relate to new partners, especially when communication issues contributed to the end of a marriage.
Seth, Pete, and Dr. Leit dive into the importance of self-reflection and awareness before entering a new relationship. They discuss the fantasy of a perfect future partner and the need to address what went wrong in the previous marriage first. Dr. Leit introduces her concept of the "3 Vs" crucial for a successful relationship: Vibe, Values, and Vision. She explains each in detail, offering valuable insights into how these elements contribute to a strong partnership. Additionally, Dr. Leit shares the "3 As" essential for effective communication: Awareness, Acceptance, and Action.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How can I avoid repeating negative patterns in a new relationship?
What are the key factors for a strong, lasting partnership?
How do I know if I'm ready to date again after divorce?
Key Takeaways:
Self-reflection and awareness are essential before entering a new relationship
Shared values and vision are crucial for a successful partnership
Effective communication, built on awareness, acceptance, and action, is vital
This episode is packed with practical advice and thought-provoking ideas to help you navigate the world of dating and relationships post-divorce. Whether you're considering a new partnership or already in one, Seth, Pete, and Dr. Leit's insights will give you the tools to build a stronger, healthier relationship.
Links & Notes
Find Dr. Leit on the web here or here, Instagram, or LinkedIn
See Dr. Leit’s books onBarnes & Noble or Amazon
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. You've got a new toaster, but how do you really learn to relate to it?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today, we're talking about the patterns we develop in our relationships. More specifically, how do we break those patterns and learn to be with new partners after divorce?
Dr. Etel Leit is a human communication researcher, a prominent figure in psychology and education. She is also the founder of SignShine, a family center in Beverly Hills. She's a faculty member in psychology and in MBA programs at Palo Alto Sophia University. That's a mouthful, Pete, in Cambridge College in Boston. Way too many like psychology, MBA, all these universities, here we go.
Pete Wright:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
She's here today to teach us, thankfully how to communicate effectively with new partners in shake free of the yoke of codependence, especially when communication was a factor in your divorce. Now, it says her first name, but it's Dr. Leit to me, Pete. Welcome to the Toaster.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Thank you so much.
Seth Nelson:
My gosh, psychology, MBA, all these different schools, Beverly Hills, we are out kicking our coverage today, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I know outclassed. We're punching up as they say.
Dr. Etel Leit:
I'm humbled. I prefer to be maybe not the toaster, maybe I'm a ninja. That's the buzzword right now.
Pete Wright:
Welcome, ninja. As this episode falls, we've been talking about some heavy topics. It's nice to get into some communication where we can really, I feel like we can talk about how to reframe our lives and our relationships in a way that allows us to move forward in a real positive way. What do we need to learn? I can't let go of this idea of patterns.
I'll be real honest, I've got some dear friends that are pursuing a divorce. I feel like I'm living it through them and all I can think is how could they possibly relate to new partners after this? How could they possibly figure out all the idiosyncrasies? How could they possibly learn to have sex with new people?
All of these things seem to be rooted in new patterns of communication. That's what I want to learn from you today. Where would you like to start?
Dr. Etel Leit:
We're going to start from the old patterns because many people are already dreaming about, some people even dream about the new partner were in the first phase, which is thinking about the divorce because divorce doesn't happen in a day. You don't wake up in the morning and say, "Let's get a divorce."
It starts, it's cooking, it's in the toaster, it's in the ninja way before and you ruminate. The one thing that people always about is it's the illusion, the fantasy, "My next relationship is going to be fill in the blank." You said it, Pete, it's like the sex and the romance and the communication. It's going to be amazing.
When it's like, hold on, because before you're going to ruminate that, the think about what is going on right now? If you don't have an awareness of what is bothering you now, not only in the partner but also within you, you won't be able to build anything new. I always say before we build something, we have to literally just vanish something that was not there.
If we build something on the foundations that are not very strong, it's going to be the same thing. It's going to be the illusion of like, "Wow, somebody else is going to come and make me feel loved." When all along the love and the relationship and the communication come from within. We just learn this pattern with the old partner.
Pete Wright:
Well, and it feels like, I mean, if you don't clear the decks so to speak, that's when you end up with four or five divorces just repeating patterns.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Or with another relationship after the other, yes.
Seth Nelson:
We can end this show right now because it sounds like we're going to teach people how not to do that, Pete, and you're trying to get to my bottom line, four or five divorces.
Dr. Etel Leit:
We don't want to do that. Listen, it's like a bottle of water. When I have a bottle of water, there is a little dirt in the water and I'm trying to fill in with clean water. No matter how much the water is going to be dirty, I need to literally go and clean the water first for my bottle so I can pour clean water. That's the one thing, how do I do it, right? You can ask me, so how do I clean my water?
Pete Wright:
Well, let me just say, first of all, that's a ridiculously good metaphor and I can't believe I've never heard that before. I like truck in metaphors and that is totally new to me.
Seth Nelson:
Dr. Leit, I'm telling you.
Pete Wright:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
We're punching up.
Pete Wright:
Holy cow.
Seth Nelson:
It's interesting, doctor, because where you're saying people are in the relationship rebuilding process is not something I hear frequently in my office. I usually hear, "I'm never getting married again. I have no interest in dating anyone again." That is a common refrain because in their mind, from my perception that's what led them to where they are now.
It's so awful going through the divorce process. They never want to do it again and they know the one way they can never do that again is not being in relationship, or they'll say not get married, which I get. Then I'm always just wait a year until after your divorce to start seeing anyone seriously. You never know what might happen.
Then I see them two years later and three years later and then they're calling for a prenup and they're getting married or I run into them and they got, "This is my new husband. This is my new wife." It's interesting to see where you are in that thought process of people are going through divorce in the new relationships.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Interesting. I'm going to break my answer into two. First of all, it's the human need to be with someone. I always say, and that before the new marriage so let's talk about that. I always say we're not pandas. We are not pandas. I don't know if you know that pandas are soloist animals.
One of my favorite things to do when my kids were younger, sometimes today on a date is go to the zoo. It's such an amazing thing, especially if I see a zookeeper. Oh boy, because I have lots of questions. Zookeepers they will answer anything. I mean, that's what they do and not everybody asking them.
I went and next to the app pandas, I saw the zookeeper and I wanted to know everything about pandas. I was surprised because pandas are soloists. What happened? Pandas grow. They live on the bamboo when it's time to mate, they go down, they mate. The female panda getting pregnant and after few months she's giving birth to the baby panda.
She keeps this baby panda with her on the bamboo only for one year. After one year baby panda is going away. Again, they're all living soloist. We are human. We need human to live. We need a partner to accomplish ourselves, to change ourselves, to feel that we are something in this world. We are humans who need other persons.
When somebody comes and tells me, "Etel, I don't want anyone in my life. I don't want to date, I don't want to think about a partner." Of course, because you just got hurt. If you put your finger in a plug and you got burned, you will be thinking a few times, you're going to put it again.
Eventually, this need which you came to the world with it is going to come again and [inaudible 00:08:02] again. At first, there is a lot of walls that I'm sure you heard it before. People come with heavy walls. By the way, people who saw their parents fighting at home or having divorce at home or not talking, and that's a surprising thing, not fighting at home.
Many people who saw their parents pretending that everything is good also will build walls before they're coming into relationship. The inner thing is yes, is to mate, to have a relationship, to find a partner, to live in this, "Wow, I am giving someone some joy and this person is giving us some joy."
We need to break down what is relationship? Why do we need a partner? Is it sex? Is it for me? Is it for someone to admire me which is the big mistake? Is it so I can give and take, get back? Then we're going to talk about the prenup, right?
Pete Wright:
What is it? Everything you've just said, I wanted to answer all of that.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Tell me, tell me why, one answer, why do you think that-
Pete Wright:
What are the values that I have in my marriage? It's partnership, it's best friendship. It's the sex, it's the act of building something together. It all goes back to the first spark that brought us together in the first place, which is each other. Everything else, we've made kids together, we have a house, we've got pets, all of that stemmed from the value of this partnership that we built together.
It just cascades everything else that you said from there. That's how it fits in my head. That's good, right?
Dr. Etel Leit:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Can I get a grade on that? I feel like that was A answer, but maybe.
Dr. Etel Leit:
A-, no. Great, you're right because the first thing is what get us together is each other, right? I call it the vibe. The three things that get people together, I call it the three V. Followers, listeners, open your notes. I mean, I used to say take a pen and a pencil. Take notes, write it down. The three Vs, this is going to be the relationship, your next relationship.
If they answer this three vs and you answer their three Vs. The first thing, Pete, you got it's the vibe, it's the vibe, it's the person. The test for it is always the scent, if you like their smell, that's the vibe. She can be very unbelievable. The minute you smell and the smell is funky, that's a no-no, that's the research shows, it's a no-no.
That's why when people say no, she doesn't have the blonde blue eyes bigger, but her smell attracts you, boom, that there.
Pete Wright:
Seth, rule on that. What do I want to say? What's your wife's smell like? No, I don't want to say that, but I want to say do you notice that? Is that a thing?
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely, haven't you had it, Pete when you were in college? You were going home for the summer or whatever and your girlfriend took your sweatshirt and she loved the smell of the sweatshirt?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
That's what we're talking about.
Pete Wright:
I have something even better. A million years, I would not have expected this memory to come back, but my wife and I were each other's first kiss in the seventh grade. Then we went to different high schools, different colleges, everything years apart. When we came back together, I remember the smell was like home. It was familiar, that is crazy.
Dr. Etel Leit:
That's biology. That's the animalistic thing that we still have because that's how animals connect. It's the scent and that's the first thing that you're going to connect with someone.
Seth Nelson:
I want to hear about the other two, but I got a quick question. What about perfumes and colognes? Are they getting in the way of that?
Dr. Etel Leit:
That's exactly what I wanted to say. That's why the perfume and cologne industry are making billions of dollars because what smells good on peak is not going to smell good on set. It's a mixture of the body door with a perfume. Some people like flowers, some people like really strong, some people like wood and it's different.
It's the mixture together. That's why men wear lot of color when they go somewhere because that's what will attract. When this scent is going to fade, what will stay? The scent of a person? That's the first vibe, I call it the vibe.
Pete Wright:
For perfumes, I'm really fixating on scent. That's not going to mask, it's not creating a scent pretender.
Dr. Etel Leit:
It's going to be maybe the first thing when you notice the person. By the way, strip clubs you know the magic of a strip club. All dancers in strip club, they're putting a vanilla scent, right? That's the one scent that will [inaudible 00:12:48]
Seth Nelson:
I did not know that. I will go to my grave with that answer.
Pete Wright:
I'm sure I've never heard that. Thank you for illuminating that for our audience. Seth and I have no experience with that.
Seth Nelson:
No idea. No idea.
Pete Wright:
No.
Seth Nelson:
I will tell you, we are going to come out with a new NLG cologne and perfume that no one likes the smell of and have people wear it to cause divorce.
Pete Wright:
Seth, really? You're going to lean in again on-
Seth Nelson:
I'm leaning in. Actually, I'll give credit, that was Andy's joke and I just said it. He typed it in there. Okay, what's the next V?
Dr. Etel Leit:
The next Vs are values. Unique people with the same values to connect. Now with people we assume that if we see a person and we attracted them or they're attracted to us, we have the same values, but not necessarily. Some people, their family values are really, really high. It's high standards. Their family is everything to them.
Some people, their family is not in the highest value. These people are not going to connect. Then I'm going to go to the next V, it's connected to the next, values or if you go to a restaurant with someone and you see the person treating the waiter or the waitress really poorly, some people will notice it and will feel really, for me, I can tell you.
It's very important for me, if I go with a new person, it doesn't have to be romantic. I see someone that doesn't treat the server right, that doesn't sit well with me. Now this are my values and so forth. Any values have to connect this people because otherwise this is where it's going to be like the cracks that usually will come to set 10 years later because they ignored them at first.
Pete Wright:
Sidebar, may it please the court. When you talk about values, I mean we're talking, say you take a couple who's ideologically split. Is there such a thing as a long-term relationship of somebody who's hardcore liberal with somebody who's hardcore conservative? Can they make it and just not talk about certain stuff?
Dr. Etel Leit:
One thing about me, I don't talk about politics will really strongly about it. I am from a place of origin. You can hear my accent that I really try to avoid that. I don't know if it's values or it's political views. I will separate it just for this [inaudible 00:15:05]
Pete Wright:
Views is also a V.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Any view, but I try to separate it because political views are values or it's something else. We can talk about it for another three hours. I try to put it aside. I talk more about the core values of a human being as they go within their life of treating other people or seeing the value, what is really up standards in their lives.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, there was the one couple though that Pete is James Carville and Mary Matalin who were political consultants and big time campaigns.
Pete Wright:
Totally opposite.
Seth Nelson:
Totally opposites.
Pete Wright:
Did they end up divorced?
Seth Nelson:
I don't remember.
Pete Wright:
This is why I bring it up because as a value, one of the things that I value with my wife and our value is communicating about hard subjects. I don't think we could sustain a relationship if there was an entire category about which we could not speak.
Dr. Etel Leit:
This is the difference. You could not speak, but you don't have to agree. That's an amazing thing, Pete, you just brought up something really, really important. It doesn't mean that if you have a partner, you agree on everything. Actually, you don't want to be with someone that you agree and everything.
That's really boring, you're kind of with yourself, but you want to be in a relationship that you have safety. I'll repeat this word, safety. You feel really, really safe to express yourself without being in put down or dismissed, belittled, or the other way around. The minute that you have in the relationship someone that is bigger and someone that is smaller, this is a red flag, people, big red flag.
You want to be open to talk about things. Yes, I had in my therapy people that have different opinions about different things and it's fine because this is the respect and the safety that I give to someone else. The dignity I should say to be and the dignity to be who they are without the need to change that.
For a side note how much people want to really change the other person. We want to get to the third V first, right? We said first V is a vibe, second V, values. The third V, especially in the beginning of our relationship or even in the middle is vision. The vision, where's your boat taking you?
You're on a boat with a partner, it's beautiful, but where are you going? Which island are you going? For example, kids, do you want to have more kids or not? Are you down with this or not? That's one thing. Financially, where do you want to live? Some people today with all the applications and people traveling and AI, they live in different continent.
Where do you want to live? Are you willing to do the move or not? Are you working online or not? Where's your vision? Where do you see yourself without the partner first and then with a partner? It's really important that the person will have a vision without a partner first for themselves and then with a partner. This is how, "Okay, we're going to try to-
Seth Nelson:
I think that can change some, in my own experience, I actually just talked to my wife about this the other day. She was telling her friends that, "Seth married the wrong girl because he loves going out on boats and she loves boats, but she gets seasick so she just can't do it."
That's something that I absolutely love. If I told her, "Look, I'm going to go sailing this day or with a friend or go rent one or whatever." She would be like, "Enjoy, go have a good time." I don't nearly go out on boats as much as I used to because she can't enjoy that. My vision on that has changed.
I'm not upset about it. I'm not pissed off about it. I don't hold it against her. I can go anytime I want. I'd just rather spend time with her on that day. If I'm going, I go. It's fine.
Dr. Etel Leit:
This is how you are complete with it, right? If your vision before getting to know your wife was, "I want to spend all of my life on a boat somewhere and just take cruises all the time. That's what I want to do. This is my life inspiration. That's what I want to do." Then comes your wife and you're like, "Oh god, maybe I'll give her Dramamine and I'll try to convince her and we'll go to this special doctor."
That's not happening, that will start the crack. I'm hearing something that I like, "I'm complete with it. I can go with my friends."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly. She's good on compromise, so we bought a water bed.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Let's take it even one step forward. She doesn't feel abandoned that you were doing your own things. She doesn't feel, "Oh my god, this is his vision and I'm left here. I'm not in his life course with him and I'm feeling abandoned. I'm feeling that I'm not with him anymore." This is where this crack starts.
It's very clear, my vision is clear to you, you're to me. We're not trying to change each other, but the big vision is to be together. That's why I'm going to compromise exactly. That's the big vision.
Pete Wright:
Seth gets to wear a captain's hat to bed every night.
Seth Nelson:
It's awesome.
Pete Wright:
Aye, aye, captain.
Seth Nelson:
You know my wife, do you think there's any chance she would ever call me captain? That would never happen in any way, shape, or form.
Pete Wright:
This could be a descriptor after it for sure.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Would you like it, Seth? Would you like it?
Seth Nelson:
No, I actually would not.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
I would not.
Pete Wright:
Those are the three Vs, right? There are vibe, values, and shared vision.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Vibe, value, vision. Now, after meet someone for the first three dates, please don't do it after the first date, three dates. Check your vibe, values, and vision. Often people do it after the first date. First date, you can get the vibe a little bit, but after the third date, you really can get who is the person. Give people the dignity, the benefit of a doubt.
Seth Nelson:
Dr. Leit, I got a serious question here. It might not sound serious, but so many people will be like, I keep picking the same person over and over. I keep making the same mistake. It's been more than three dates. How do we solve that problem?
Dr. Etel Leit:
Remember what I said at first, nobody is going to solve your problem. You have to go within first. You have to seek in yourself. Why do you choose that patterns? Why do you choose the same person? What is it within you that is seeking in someone else to fill this void that is in you?
The minute, and I'm saying you're, by the minute that the person's self-esteem or how they see themselves is not so high, I always tell people, shoulders up, feel your breath. Head up, put your crown on. You're going to choose immediately somebody else. It's not seeking to be with someone because I'm lonely.
I don't have sex, because who's going to see me if not this person? This is how you're going to attract the same person again and again and again. When your self-esteem is higher, when you really went and did a house cleaning, and let me ask you, is it fun to clean? No. When you clean your boat, your car, your truck, it's messy.
When you clean your home, it's messy. When you clean your garage, nobody wants to do it. It's messy. It's long. It's no fun. That's the same thing when we clean the inside, especially after a divorce. First, we have to clean first. We have to see what's going on with them. Then to be ready with shoulders up, chest, feel good breath, and put the crown on.
You will attract the person that you really deserve, not just the person that will come so you're not going to be lonely on a Saturday night. That's the difference. That's the beginning of really pulling into your world, someone that you deserve and they deserve.
Seth Nelson:
At what point? You got your shoulders back, your head held high, you're wearing your crown, you're on a date. At what point does your former relationship come up and how do you handle that?
Dr. Etel Leit:
We're going to the next question, right? As long as you're trying to fix a person and to look on what they're doing, you're not ready. I have some props to it. Are you ready for my props?
Seth Nelson:
Sure.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Here we go. As long as you're going to hold a magnifying glass looking, nitpicking, what does the other person did? Especially when you get divorced and I'm sure you hear it all the time. What he did, I call it the monkey talk he, he, he, he or she, she, she, she.
Pete Wright:
Write it down. Write it down.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Monkey talk. I like the monkey talk. I tell my clients, "Okay, so you pay me, you want to do the monkey talk, let's do it. We have an hour. Let's do monkey talk, right?" As long as you do the monkey talk and you nitpicking on someone else and not willing to pick up the mirror, the heart's mirror, that's my mirror. You're not ready for the relationship.
I would say, and write it down, everyone, put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror. It's also in my third book UnAddicted to You. Put down the magnifying glass, pick up the mirror. Once you do that, you're really ready to look within and guess what? The person that you're going to bring into your life will actually help you to look in the mirror.
That's relationship, relationship is not about a person that admires you. Many, many people choose someone that, "My god, they love me. They made me feel so-and-so." It's about a person that will help you elevate and grow in your life. How they do that? They help you look at the mirror without shame, without blame, without belittling you.
By the way, this is what women do for men. I'm not a feminist, sorry, feminism. I really believe in roles of a man and a woman. That's how I brought, that's one of my values. That's why my men believe in the same thing, a queen and a king. We don't have two kings or two queens in our home.
He helps me to elevate and I help him to elevate by not nitpicking all day long. What's the bad things that she did or I did? That doesn't feel comfortable. That goes into explaining the toaster, the ninja.
Pete Wright:
Well, what's funny about that, hearing you talk about it the way you talk about it and back to Seth's question, when does the previous relationship come up? If you've done this at all successfully, if you're really ready for that next relationship, it doesn't matter when the old relationship comes up in conversation because it's not threatening to anybody. It's just a point of history. Nobody's scared of it.
Seth Nelson:
It's not you bitching about what the other person did.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Here we go.
Seth Nelson:
When they say what happens. I mean, Pete, I've said this. I've said this, when my former spouse was standing there, my current spouse, and my former spouse's husband, we all get along. I mistakenly called my current spouse my former spouse's name in this conversation.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Oopsy Daisy.
Seth Nelson:
Literally, there was a pregnant pause and my wife is amazing. She goes, "I'm not offended. I think you're great." Speaking to my former spouse,
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
"In fact, I've asked Seth very early on in our relationship that your former spouse is smart. She's funny, she's very attractive. What happened? Then of course they all look at me and I'm like, "I fucked it up. We all know that, okay?"
Pete Wright:
Who's the common denominator?
Seth Nelson:
I was looking in the mirror about all the that I made, and I wasn't nitpicking any more about the stuff that I was nitpicking when I shouldn't have been. That just makes life easier. Just think about this, Pete, that if your friend that's going through a divorce is going out to date someone else, and what happened in your last relationship, and he starts bitching about his former spouse, really what I believe he's telling her is all the things that new date is going to be looking for. "This is how he's going to treat me."
Pete Wright:
Exactly.
Dr. Etel Leit:
We're not taking accountability because the minute that you are accountable to things that happen, this is not about the other person. I didn't understand that you actually asked me verbatim, when do we talk about past relationship? I'll tell you something, my dad is not a doctor. He doesn't teach psychology, but he taught me.
When I got divorced, first time he taught me, he said, "The first date, don't speak about your ex. Make sure that they don't talk about their ex because if they speak about your ex, you say, and that's what I used to say. I used to say, "My dad taught me not to talk about my ex." That's simple because usually men will listen to what your dad said, not what your mom said. It's a little trick, people.
Seth Nelson:
My line was always when they would ask, I would say, "Well, I made my mistakes, but let's not invite my former spouse into this wonderful dinner we're having right now."
Dr. Etel Leit:
Beautiful.
Pete Wright:
That's what I mean. It was like this idea of when it eventually comes up, it's going to be fine, no one will care. I do agree with dad, don't bring it up the first date.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Don't bring it up the first date.
Pete Wright:
You won't need to if you've done the work. It won't matter.
Seth Nelson:
The best time is right after you have sex for the first time.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
That's a good time.
Pete Wright:
That's a good time. When you hold up a scorecard. Is that what you're talking about, Seth?
Seth Nelson:
That's right. Don't say, "Oh my god, my former spouse is so much better in bed than you." That's probably not the best thing to say. I'm just thinking this through, Pete. Trying to help people out here.
Pete Wright:
It's good to process out loud sometimes.
Seth Nelson:
Right, not that time.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Really amazing. Great, great way point comparison. Something that can ruin any relationship, it doesn't matter if it's dating, in relationship, boyfriend-girlfriend or in marriage is comparison. When you compare in your head, "Oh my god, Johnny's wife is or wow, her husband is amazing." This is where it starts in your head or even at loud.
This is when you do the comparison, the cracks are starting. Don't compare. I call it the compare and despair. What we are doing, also in my book, we're comparing our inside to someone else outside. Guess what, social media, whoo, that's what the new generation is doing. We're comparing our inside to someone else outside.
We really don't know what's going on in someone else inside when we see them on social media or elsewhere. We don't know what other couples are feeling. We don't know what is the illusion of the best couple or the trophy couple. It's everything that is going inside that's what really, really mattered.
Pete Wright:
I feel like we've noodled our way into this conversation about new partnership patterns specifically in relationship to comparisons of past partners in bed. I'm interested in these tools that you might be able to offer for people who are trying to break old patterns.
There are just some communication habits that we build when you're living with somebody and communicating with them for 20 plus years. Am I making it too hard by making it a question on this show?
Dr. Etel Leit:
Not at all. First of all, and again, I always give these tools and abbreviation and things that people can write because I believe when you write it or when you remember it, then it's easier. It's not something that somebody just said on a show. I call it the three A's. By the way, I was in the Israeli intelligence.
I was a commander in the Israeli intelligence, hence the ninja. I like it. Everything in the Israeli intelligence is a three. It's divided by three, it's the three As. The first A is awareness. You can't fix anything, you can't change anything unless you're aware that it's not working any longer. The first is awareness.
It doesn't work for me anymore that when I communicate, when I feel heated, I raise my voice. When I feel that things are heated, I just run away to the other room where I go to my social media or I avoid, it just doesn't work for me anymore. I really, really want to change it. It's not that I want the other person to change it because that's easy, right? I want to change it, awareness.
Then the second A is acceptance. Awareness, acceptance, I'm in acceptance that that's what I do. When the brain is in trigger, and some people call it trauma, I think the trauma is really, really heavy. When the brain is triggered, the brain goes into four modes. That's what we do, we go into fawn, fight, flight or freeze. It all comes from childhood.
It all comes from patterns that it's not one day like, "I'm going to avoid my wife when she's asking for something or I'm going to raise my voice when I'm feeling threatened." It comes from childhood. Either you saw your parents doing it or yourself. You freeze, you fly, you yell, you fly to go to the other room looking on, I don't know the sports and TV or you fall.
You'd fawn like, "Sweetheart, what can I do? What can I do?" Instead of talking about what's going on. That's the acceptance, really searching and highly, highly recommend to do it with someone that will help you do that, because that's the real process. First, awareness, "Damn it, can't do it anymore. 20 years is enough, that's it." Acceptance, "That's what I do, this is my pattern. Wow, I can see that."
Only the last A is the action. "Now, what are we going to do? What am I going to do?" If I'm aware enough that every time that my wife, for example, fill in the blank is asking me for something, I go to the room. I can see that. I'm like, "I avoid her. I avoid her. That's what I do and now I want to change it. Now, I'm starting to change to say, I'll get back to you, or I'll do it by six o'clock."
I like when people say, "I'll get back to you," but give some timeframe because otherwise the other person feel abandoned. "I'll get back to you tomorrow morning about it." Instead of feeling pressure to give answers right away. I just gave an example, there's so many examples that we can talk about. When you go to this process, this is the beginning of real change just catching yourself.
It's like, "Oops," I love Britney Spears. "Oops, I did it again. Oops, I ran away to the sports again." Then the next time it's like, "Oops, I almost turn on the TV, but right now I'm going to try to say something." It's the oops, I did it again. Oops, I did it again until I try to correct myself, that's the only way to change.
I wish I had a potion something like a magic potion. I don't, but that's my magic potion. Just to be aware of it and do it with someone and to be accountable. I want to change that. Does that make sense?
Pete Wright:
Right, I feel like the awareness, the trick of learning, well, just me, for example, when am I engaging in numbing behavior because I'm avoiding something else. When am I don't know, playing a video game or eating a whole box of Oreos? What am I doing to numb out from the discomfort that I'm having and being aware and saying, "Oops, I did it again." Instead of hit me baby one more time.
Dr. Etel Leit:
I like that.
Pete Wright:
Britney wrote the world's wisdom.
Seth Nelson:
There's a song in that movie A Star is Born with Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga. I don't know the name of the song, but he sings it about it's time to let the old ways die. That's just this saying I have in my head when I see something that I'm doing, I need to let this enough, I need to make a change.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Change will not occur if it's comfortable. People are like, "Oh my god, it's uncomfortable." Divorce is uncomfortable. Separating is uncomfortable, but with that, you can either change your way or stay in the same way, do it again.
Seth Nelson:
That's with everything though. If you have a golf swing and someone tries to change your grip, it's going to be uncomfortable.
Pete Wright:
It sucks.
Seth Nelson:
But you can hit the ball better.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Any pattern, any habit. It's uncomfortable in order for you to change it. Just like a little sign, "Hey, change it." How do I know it's comfortable? Nobody changed when they're sitting at Hawaii drinking piña coladas, it's like, what are you going to change? It's fun, I'm going to do it. The change occurs when it's [inaudible 00:35:43]
Seth Nelson:
Color of the umbrella?
Dr. Etel Leit:
Yeah, what color?
Seth Nelson:
I'm really tired of this blue umbrella, Pete.
Pete Wright:
I know, let's sit down at the piano and sing a Lady Gaga song.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Britney Spears. We can see the light only when it's dark. Can you imagine? I'm lighting a candle and I'm in Hawaii right in the middle of the day and I'm lighting a candle. Are you going to see this candle, the light of the candle? Probably not, I don't know.
Pete Wright:
Probably not.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Right now, let's go to our room which is dark, pitch dark room. There's not even one tiny ray of light, and you light the same candle in this room. Will you see this candle?
Seth Nelson:
It's bright.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Absolutely it's bright, so you need the dark. You need those comfortable, uncomfortable moments in order to see the bright moments.
Pete Wright:
You just drop dropped a lot of wisdom on us. You've also mentioned your books. Would you just real quick, as we get toward wrapping up, just tell us a little bit about where you want people to go learn more about your fantastic writing?
Dr. Etel Leit:
Thank you. I have four published books on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I actually had my book signing in Barnes and Noble in LA, The Grove, which was fantastic and amazing and a big surprise. I wrote four books. The first one is actually parenting books, that's how I started my career with SignShine. It's called the You are My SignShine!
The second one is five children's books. I started to write about a little fish that went to his parents and the fish asked his parents, where is water? I'm not going to tell you the answer because nobody knew where is water. Then I wrote the book and four others, so it's not only mom and dad, it's mama and mommy, dada and papa, then still a single mom, single dad.
I wanted the book to be able to every family, hence values. Then my third book, which is my favorite, it's a novel and it's a self-help. It's called UnAddicted to You. It's about people who are addicted to relationship and cannot break through their patterns or anything like that.
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
Love it.
Pete Wright:
Good cover.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Thank you. Which is about how to communicate and be in a relationship in the AI world, in the world of social media and AI. It's the new hip thing. People really do not know. I mean, they think that they're going to have a relationship with the AI machine, but it's not really like that where, as I said, we're not pandas.
Seth Nelson:
When my wife talks to me, I think she would prefer that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right? She might speaking of punching up. I think Seth, we might need to schedule a conversation on AI relationships next season and bring Etel back.
Seth Nelson:
I would love that.
Pete Wright:
I think that would be-
Dr. Etel Leit:
That's a whole new thing, absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
We need to do that because it impacts everything.
Dr. Etel Leit:
We can't ignore that.
Seth Nelson:
It impacts the kids. It impacts how you communicate with your kids. I think we'd have a lot to talk about on that show.
Pete Wright:
Me too.
Dr. Etel Leit:
People are changing the way we relate to people, but that's from next [inaudible 00:38:40]
Pete Wright:
Perfect. Hey, Etel, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for spending time with us.
Dr. Etel Leit:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
You're fantastic. We have to turn to a listener question. Our listener question today, Seth, our listener question comes from Jen. Jen has a story. I'm going to go ahead and read it as submitted. Here we go. Question about the stepmom. "I was married to my current ex-husband for 10 years. We divorced in 2020. It turned out that my ex-husband was dating my daughter's grade six teacher so he left me continued his relationship with her.
Then within six months, moved her in and they have continued their lives together. At first, I was of course sad about the divorce. Happy that the kids would have somebody reasonable in their lives, educated and whatnot. However, as time progressed, it became very clear that she suffers from some kind of mental illness.
Often very anxious, she has extremely controlling behavior. Will not allow my ex-husband to communicate with me directly. Within the first year, she took over all communication. When I refused to communicate with her, they just shut me down and said, "If I wasn't going to communicate with her, then there would be no communication whatsoever."
I strongly believe that she is not a stable human being. I don't think it's in the best interest of my children to live with such a person. However, with her being in the education area and coming across as a decent human to those who don't live in my little bubble, I am unsure how I can successfully prove that she has no one's interest at heart except her own.
Any advice on this tough scenario? For example, most recently she had been in a texting conversation with my daughter who was 14. When they initially started talking about possibly having a baby, which was within the first two years of them being together, my daughter expressed that if she ever had a baby, my daughter would want to move out.
She brought this up to my daughter yesterday through texts saying that she cried and cried and cried because of this comment that my 14-year-old made when she was only 12. She and the stepmom had to seek therapy after my daughter made this comment. This seems like some form of emotional manipulation.
This is only one circumstance, there are many more, a very similar type of scenario that goes on. What are your thoughts? Thanks for your time, Jen." Thank you, Jen. Sounds tough.
Seth Nelson:
It's extremely tough. I'm going to take the question at hand is I'm unsure how I can successfully prove that she has no one's interest at heart except her own. Any advice on this tough situation? It's not about her. It's about your children that are living in this environment. There's two big parts that I've seen in this question.
One is the lack of communication between the two parents about their own children. The stepmom has no business being involved in that. Now, she's what I call ghost people. They're around, you don't see them, they can heavily influence. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad.
Obviously, as the story is written, she's bad. You need to set up a way to try to communicate with your former spouse, your co-parent. Have discussions and/or email communication or OurFamilyWizard, Talking Parents, any other apps out there that we can use to communicate.
Rest assured in my experience, this stepmom will be typing those emails, texting those text messages from the other side, but you've got to set up the communication that we believe to be co-parents. If I'm in court, just by the way, when we're talking about proof, proof is something that happened in court, I am not calling her stepmom. I am calling her husband's new wife.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Because that's the connection.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that's the connection. I imagine in this scenario as written, that might be a triggering comment.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I'm going to just refer to the court. This is the husband's new wife, the husband's new wife, the husband's new wife not the stepmom. Stepmom can be good or bad. Husband's new wife is causing the problems.
Pete Wright:
Is there a legal distinction there? She has to have what?
Seth Nelson:
There is no legal distinction. What I'm saying is in my persuasive argument, what I would try to persuade the judge is words matter. If I say stepmom, there's a connection between the child and that person, stepparent, stepmom. I want to break that connection in court when I'm trying to be persuasive. That's one way I try to prove it.
The other issue is when you talk about proof, you now have text messages going from husband's new wife to your daughter and your husband's daughter. I would never say my daughter or his daughter, I would say the name. Look what she's texting to our children. This is a problem. Ultimately, I would ask the court to hold the co-parent accountable that he cannot allow this to happen. It's in his house.
Pete Wright:
He let go of the communication channel between the former spouse.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. He put his own needs and his new marriage ahead of the needs of the children and the needs of the children are for the co-parents to communicate effectively together without interference from any third parties.
Pete Wright:
For Jen, if you were representing Jen right now, given this, what would you do next?
Seth Nelson:
If I represent Jen, I want to make sure she's in compliance with the court order the final judgment. Whether it's parenting plan, issue, marital settlement agreement issue, financial, whatever she's supposed to do I want to make sure she's done it because you don't want to throw stones in glass houses and file all this stuff.
"You didn't do stuff too." You don't want to be on defensive. You want to be in the offensive. Second, I would immediately file a motion if it's not already in there to communicate through OurFamilyWizard. I already immediately file a motion for family therapy to include her, her co-parent, and the children and that's it.
Pete Wright:
Not the new wife.
Seth Nelson:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Correct, there's a breakdown in his house. He's got to handle it and this is the problem. If he doesn't get his house in order, then I'm doing a supplemental petition to modify the final judgment if there is negative impacts on the children. See what we can do from there.
Pete Wright:
Is that something based on what you've read that you say, "Jen, you should talk to an attorney in your local jurisdiction."?
Seth Nelson:
I think absolutely talk to attorney in your local jurisdiction. I don't think judges particularly like when new spouses get involved.
Pete Wright:
Good advice. Thank you, counselor.
Seth Nelson:
Sorry you're dealing with it, Jen.
Pete Wright:
Sorry Jen, but thank you so much for writing it in and sharing. I'm sure you're not alone. Help yourself, help others by submitting these questions. Thank you everybody for doing just that. If you want to submit your own question, visit howtosplitatoaster.com and you can press the button that says Submit a Question.
It'll come straight to us. We'll ask Seth on the air and get your question answered. Thank you everybody who has done that, thank you so much for your time and attention listening to this show with us. Thank you very most especially to Dr. Etel Leit, our guest today. We can't wait to have her back on the show.
On behalf of Dr. Leit and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you right back here next time on How To Split Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to Split a Toaster is part of the TruStory FM podcast network, produced by Andy Nelson, music, by T. Bless and the Professionals & DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice.
Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
